Automatic episode summary
Keith Vance opens episode 33 by explaining how it came about. A few months earlier his wife and children were away for a three-day weekend and he found himself home alone at dinner time. He pulled food out to cook, thought about how much it would hurt to do this for himself permanently, and put it all back. He drove to a Cracker Barrel in the Fort Myers area, and Brenda Paniourgias was his waitress. Watching her clear a table for six, he found himself thinking about his own mother and his own wife and what their futures might look like, and every time she came back he asked one more question. He left what he describes as the biggest tip she had ever received. Brenda asked him outright whether he was legitimate, since she is not comfortable with technology and had heard about scams aimed at the elderly.
Brenda turns 82 this month. She works dinners two to four nights a week because her Social Security check covers her rent and nothing more. She keeps her thermostat at 79, unplugs the microwave and coffee maker until she needs them, and combines her driving into one trip. She is direct about the physical demands: "If you can't do the job, you don't have the job," she says of the heavy trays and ice buckets she still carries.
The episode's refrain is Plan B. She tells young customers to put away five or ten dollars a week they will never miss and never touch it, and tells parents that the best thing they can leave a child is property, because even bare land is somewhere to park. Her own Plan B is a 2021 Ford Connect van she bought new five years ago, chosen because it holds her single mattress with room for plastic bins of clothes; she says there have already been short periods when she lived in it. Behind that stands Angels in Waiting, her booth on the red aisle at the Flea Masters flea market.
The long middle is her life story, which Keith calls a life about Plan B. Born in 1944 in Westmont, New Jersey, the middle of five children, she repeated fourth grade, wore her sister's clothes and was picked last. A fifth-grade birthday invitation turned out to be a prank, and that night she attempted to take her own life. Her father's answer was ballet, the first thing that made her feel good about herself: opera ballet in Philadelphia, lessons in New York and Montreal, and then the conclusion that she had started too late and was too tall to turn professional. She came home with no Plan B, took a job at a hamburger stand, married a policeman at 19, and had three children and what she calls the best nine years of her life. Two weeks after Christmas he told her he had fallen in love with a friend's daughter. He stayed almost another year while she tried harder, and the divorce came final on her 30th birthday.
A second life follows: a Greek diner she walked into claiming experience she did not have, twelve years dating the cook, a rise to food manager at Woolworth's, a marriage entered to keep him out of a state home after his stroke, thirty years together, and a final year and a half caring for him through dementia. Then Section 8 housing given up to move in with her daughter, a move across Florida, an illegal apartment behind a storage unit, thirteen stents and an open-heart triple bypass, and an estrangement that began last November. She moved out on December 1st and paid her daughter's December rent on the way out.
Asked by Michael where the strength came from, she credits her generation and, at this point in her life, her faith: she believes in God and believes there is a plan in the long run, without being sure which denomination she belongs to. She is candid that many days she is negative and still cries over much of it. Keith closes on the thought that opened the episode, that the people who cross our paths are not random.
Speakers
- Keith Vance host
- Brenda Paniourgias guest
- Michael Vance other
Chapters
- 0:45 The Cracker Barrel table
Keith explains how a weekend alone, a meal he did not want to cook for himself, and a corner table led him to Brenda's section. She recalls being surprised by how many questions he asked, and asking him whether he was legitimate.
- 5:58 Why she preaches Plan B
Brenda's core message to young people: everything good does not last forever, so put away five or ten dollars a week you will never miss and never touch it. She adds that the best thing parents can leave a child is a piece of property.
- 7:22 Eighty-two, and still on shift
Her birthday is coming up on the 26th, and she works because Social Security covers only her rent. She walks through the thermostat at 79, the unplugged appliances, and combining errands into one trip.
- 10:35 A van bought as a backup home
Five years ago she bought her first new car, a Ford Connect big enough to hold her single mattress, expecting a day when she cannot afford rent. She says she has already lived in it for short periods.
- 13:57 Thirteen stents and a bypass
The heart attack that hit while she was living in an illegal apartment behind a storage unit, the crawl to the office door, and the open-heart triple bypass two years ago. Cracker Barrel took her back after two months out.
- 17:05 Angels in Waiting at the flea market
Her booth on the red aisle at Flea Masters, where beaded angels sell over the holidays and resale household goods carry the slow summer months. She frames it as the income that follows the restaurant job.
- 22:36 An odd duck, and the party that wasn't
A New Jersey childhood of repeated grades, shared clothes and being picked last, ending with a fifth-grade birthday invitation that turned out to be a prank and the night she attempted to take her own life. Contains a frank account of a childhood suicide attempt.
- 28:03 Ballet, and the wall in Montreal
Her father's answer was dance lessons, and ballet became the first thing that made her feel good about herself: opera ballet in Philadelphia, a devil's laugh on the stairs at the Academy of Music, then the conclusion in Montreal that she had started too late.
- 37:14 Married at nineteen, undone at thirty
A hamburger-stand job, a policeman who came in, three children and what she calls the best nine years of her life. Two weeks after Christmas he told her he had fallen in love with a friend's daughter, and the divorce came final on her 30th birthday.
- 55:21 The Greek cook and thirty years
She walked into a Greek diner claiming experience she did not have, dated the cook for twelve years while her children grew, rose to food manager at Woolworth's, then married him when a stroke put him at risk of being placed in a state home.
- 1:04:22 Bells on the doors
Caring for a husband with dementia: leaving Walmart, chairs under the doors at night, and ten years of Westerns whose endings she still knows. She says her break was never to be without him.
- 1:16:46 Her daughter, Plan C, and where the strength came from
Giving up Section 8 to move in with her daughter, the move across Florida, and the estrangement that ended with Brenda moving out on December 1st. Then Michael's question about where she got the ability to keep getting back up, and her answer about her generation and her faith.
Key takeaways
- 6:40 Her advice to young earners is small and specific: put away five or ten dollars a week in season, money you will never miss, and never touch it. Her advice to parents is that the best inheritance is a piece of property, because even bare land is somewhere to go.
- 21:46 Keith turns the tip story into an appeal rather than a boast: if you have been blessed, get out of your own circle, look around the room, and be generous when someone is impressed on you. Brenda pushes back that the money made her feel guilty, because she does not want people to feel sorry for her.
- 1:05:28 While her second husband was recovering she paid him for watching the flea market tables so he would feel like a man again, and made a fuss when he offered to take her to dinner. Asked later whether she ever got a break from the caregiving, she answered, "My break wasn't to be without him... the company of him was my break."
Pull quotes
Brenda: "Everything good doesn't last forever. You just don't know day by day what's going to happen in your life."
Brenda, on turning down younger coworkers' offers to carry the heavy ice buckets: "If you can't do the job, you don't have the job."
Brenda's 2021 Ford Connect was bought as housing of last resort, sized to hold her single mattress with plastic clothing bins beneath it. She says there have already been short periods when she lived in it, and she names Walmart lots, gas stations and truck stops as places that will let you park if you do not stay too many nights running.
Keith: "I'm sad that we're even having this conversation in the United States when we're like the most prosperous nation... I'm having a conversation with an elderly person and she's talking about, hey, you can sleep in a Walmart parking lot."
Brenda: "You don't know what people are running through... So just kill them with kindness. That's all you can do."
Brenda, on the small humiliations of her childhood: "Parents have no idea, a lot of times, what's really going through their children's heads. They really don't... And it's sad that children are afraid to open up."
Ballet gave her the first identity she felt good about: walking into Jerome Hines costumed as the devil in Faust on the spiral stairs at the Academy of Music and hearing his laugh, and stepping onto an empty stage, because from the stage the house is only a sea of blackness. It ended in Montreal with the conclusion that she had started too late and was too tall, and she says, "I came back to New Jersey, devastated. No plan B."
Brenda, on realizing why her first husband stayed the extra year: "He had a game plan, and I did not... My plan A was we were going to make that work no matter what."
Brenda: "At this point in my life, I think it's my faith... I believe in God and that there is a plan in the long run."
Scripture & context
- 0:45 Keith met Brenda as a customer at a Cracker Barrel in the Fort Myers area on a Friday night when he was home alone and did not want to eat by himself. He says he saw his own mother and his own wife in her, tipped her heavily, and later invited her onto the podcast.
- 12:52 Brenda defends Cracker Barrel unprompted, saying it is one of the few restaurants that will hire someone her age and that they let her return two months after open-heart surgery. When Keith offers to link her store, she asks listeners to ask for anybody, not just her, because the business keeps everyone employed.
- 1:31:34 Michael Vance, credited in the diarization as Crosstalk, asks the question Keith did not: where a shy, awkward girl with no close parent, sibling or best friend picked up the ability to keep getting back up. Brenda answers that it was her generation, who did not give up on anything, not marriages and not jobs.
Questions answered
- What does Brenda mean when she talks about a Plan B?
- She means money and options set aside before you need them, because everything good does not last forever and you rarely see the turn coming. Her advice to young people is to put away five or ten dollars a week that they will never miss and never touch it. To parents she says the best thing you can leave a child is a piece of property, because rents are sky high and even land with no house on it gives them somewhere to park a car or an RV. jump · 5:58
- Why is Brenda still waiting tables at nearly 82?
- Because she has to. Keith says he asked her directly whether it was for the social interaction, and she told him she works because her Social Security check covers her rent and only her rent. She adds that she does love people, which she calls half the battle, but she is clear that she does not work for fun. jump · 8:09
- Why did she buy a van instead of a car?
- She bought a Ford Connect five years ago specifically because it is big enough to hold her single mattress, which can be bungee-corded up during the day, with room underneath for a row of plastic clothing containers. She bought it for the day she cannot afford rent or can no longer carry heavy trays. She says there have already been times she lived in it for short periods. jump · 10:35
- What happened with her heart?
- She had already had thirteen heart stents at various times and had been told they were basically a Band-Aid. When the pain and nausea came she was living in an illegal apartment behind a storage unit, and she crawled through the garage and propped open the office door with her foot to call an ambulance. Tests found a blockage, and she had an open-heart triple bypass. She was out of work two months with a lifting restriction, and Cracker Barrel let her return. jump · 13:57
- How did her first marriage end?
- Around the ninth year, two weeks after Christmas, her husband sat her down, told her all the things she was good at, and said he had fallen out of love with her and into love with a friend's daughter. She dropped from 115 pounds to 82. He stayed almost another year while she tried to win him back, and she later concluded he had stayed in order to establish a no-fault divorce. The papers came through on her 30th birthday. jump · 40:41
- What was the offer she packed for and then refused?
- Her husband wanted to pay for her to fly to Las Vegas for a quick divorce and set her up in an apartment, leaving him the house and the three children so they would not be uprooted and would still have two parents. He told her she was young enough to start over and would find somebody. She packed for three days trying to go along with it, then stopped, because she kept thinking about whether the other woman would put her children aside once she had children of her own. jump · 50:12
- How did she cope with caring for a husband with dementia?
- She left her job at Walmart because he could not be left alone, and at night she put bells on the doors and a chair underneath so he could not get out. He often did not remember who she was and his temper frightened her. She says she never asked for help and never took a break away from him, because his company was her break, and she describes ten years of watching Westerns together while she made her angels and did handcrafts. jump · 1:04:22
- Why did she move out of her daughter's apartment?
- Her daughter stopped speaking to her last November and would not eat her food or let Brenda take her out to dinner. Brenda says she could not live like that, so she moved out on December 1st at the end of the lease and paid her daughter's December rent so she would not be stuck. When she asked what was wrong, her granddaughter told her it was about letting the cat outside and using her daughter's hair ties. Brenda says she loves her daughter and did not realize how unhappy she had made her. jump · 1:23:38
- What does she say her Plan C is?
- When the waitressing goes she has the flea market, and when that goes she has the car. Beyond that she says that at the point where things really concern her she intends to drive off into the sunset like an old Western, seeing how many states she can get through, including ones she has never visited and the Keys. She frames it as doing what she wants without putting an unpleasantness on anyone, and acknowledges it may not make her family happy. jump · 1:28:31
- Where does she say her strength came from?
- Asked directly, she credits her generation first, saying they did not give up on anything, not marriages and not jobs. Then she says that at this point in her life she thinks it is her faith, though she notes the faith was not as strong early on. She describes turning Catholic to unite her family, feeling excommunicated after remarriage, and ending up where her father was: believing in God without settling on a religion, and trusting there is a plan in the long run. jump · 1:33:37
Helpful links
other
- Cracker Barrel (Fort Myers area location) Brenda waits dinner tables here two to four nights a week; Keith asks Michael to link her specific store in the episode description.
- Flea Masters flea market The Fort Myers area flea market where Brenda keeps her booth.
product
- Angels in Waiting Brenda's booth on the red aisle at Flea Masters, selling her handmade beaded angels and resale household goods.
- Richardson 112 cap The Still Strong hat Keith gives every guest, handed to Brenda at the top of the episode.
Full transcript
Keith Vance: I learned the hard way, nothing's overnight, some days you lose, some days you survive. Still Strong, even moving slow, every step counts more than you know. I found gold in the everyday, showing up and staying brave. Brenda Pano, yes. Welcome to the Still Strong Podcast.
Brenda Paniourgias: It's good to be here. Brenda. Ta-da.
Keith Vance: I don't even know you that well, but you got a special place in my heart, girl. Thank you. So I'm going to give a little backstory. A few months ago, my wife and children were on a three-day weekend, and I was home alone. I'm not used to being home alone. I got seven kids. I think I got six grandkids now. I'm always around people. But I found myself alone. It's dinner time. I'm hungry. And I just had this thought, man, this would suck to have to make a meal for myself if this was my place in life. I started pulling some food out, thinking, I'm not going to make this meal for myself, just to eat it by myself. So I put it all away. I went up to the local Cracker Barrel. They put me in this little corner. They put me in this little corner. And you were my waitress. You came over, took my drink order. And I was already having thoughts of loneliness. And I wonder what this lady's story is. Is she working up here on a Friday night at 8 o'clock because she has to? Or is she working up here because she needs a social interaction? And so every time you would come over, I would just ask you a little question. And you just gave me a little bit of your story. And at some point, I was watching you. There's a big table like six people there done. I was watching you clear the tables off, stacking stuff up, getting ready. And I saw you as my wife and my mother. I thought, if something happened to my mom, would this be her future? If something happened to my wife, would this be her future? And so every time you would come over, I just wanted to hear a little bit of your story.
Keith Vance: And long story short, I thought, you know what? I would want somebody to take care of my mama. I would want somebody to take care of my wife. And I paid my bill, and I left you probably the biggest tip you ever had. And we can tell that. Absolutely. We can tell that story. But I'm at a place in my life, Brenda, where there are no coincidences. I'm aware that the people that come into my life is not random. And you're a case in point. For me to have those thoughts and then to meet you and hear your story, this is not by accident you being here. I just want to thank you for being here and sharing your story.
Brenda Paniourgias: I'm just surprised at so much. I hate eating by myself when I go out. And so I try to make people that are by themselves at least extra politer. But I was surprised how many questions you did ask. And I was surprised at myself for answering. But I was very comfortable. It was a night. It was fairly slow. And I wasn't rushed. And it was just comfortable. And I like people. So it just... Yet at one point I got nervous. I thought, gee, I'm asking too much. I'm answering too much. It was awkward.
Keith Vance: Yeah, I know. I think at one point, I mean, you even said it. You're like, are you legit? Because you hear about people scamming old people. She's like, are you legit? So that was good. You need to ask that.
Brenda Paniourgias: Well, when you asked about a podcast, and I'm not familiar. I'm not tech at all. Have tremendous difficulty even on my phone or the computers. So, and you hear about scams all the time. Mm-hmm. Not really understanding podcasts or whatever. I thought, oh, what am I doing? Yeah.
Keith Vance: That was good for you to ask. So, Brenda, before everybody, before we get started, everybody that comes on the podcast, they get a gift. Oh, I didn't hear my gift. I don't know if you wear hats, but these are Richardson 112s. Oh, how beautiful. My kids say they're the best. Ciao. So when you're at the flea market or doing whatever you want to do, you can represent us. Thank you. You're welcome.
Brenda Paniourgias: Thank you very much. You're welcome. You make me feel stronger than I feel some days.
Keith Vance: You can just sit down on the floor or sit next to you. Michael, is her microphone in a good position? Okay. If it's ever not, just give me the sign and we'll move it. Brenda, let's talk about this. When I was at the restaurant by myself and every time you would come over and I was asking you, you kept mentioning Plan B. And you said, I'm always telling these young people, save your money, have a Plan B. You kept talking about the Plan B. So let's speak to some young people right now with where you're at in life, why you keep pushing this Plan B, why you keep telling young people, hey, be prepared. So why is that in you? Why do you preach that message?
Brenda Paniourgias: Everything good doesn't last forever. You just don't know day by day what's going to happen in your life. And you don't plan on it usually because everything's going good. But there's so many times in everybody's life that things turn and don't go good. And if you don't have a Plan B, it takes a long time to find out what you're going to do. So I've always tried now, especially at my age, to have a Plan B. And I tell these kids, when you're making money in season, put away $5, $10 a week, money you'll never miss. But money that will make a difference later on, don't ever touch it because you don't know when you're going to have to have a Plan B. So I tell parents, the best thing you can leave for your children is a property because rents are sky high. They always have a place to go to. Even if there's no house on it, you can always park your car, an RV, something. It's just always having a Plan B for the future.
Keith Vance: One thing I need to ask you is that, because I ask everybody. You've got a birthday coming up, the 26th of this month. Yeah. How old are you going to be? I'm going to be 82. Nice. Ta-da! Nice. 82 years old.
Brenda Paniourgias: I am blessed every day to get up.
Keith Vance: I really am. Yeah. I was watching you. You were a hard worker, and you were picking some heavy stuff up.
Brenda Paniourgias: If you can't do the job, you don't have the job. And the kids offer all the time to either help carry these big heavy ice buckets that we dump into the machine or into our little bins. But if I can't do the job, I don't have the job. So I appreciate their offering, but I've got to be able to do it to have that job.
Keith Vance: I asked you, when you talk about Plan B, I'm just going to ask you this question just so people can get a snapshot of where you're at in life. And then I want to tell your whole story because your life story is about Plan B. But I asked you why you're working. And he said, it's not for social interaction. He said, I have to work because you collect Social Security. Your Social Security covers your rent. Only. Only your rent. Right. So you have to work. On the way here, we were talking about expenses, and you're talking about your electric. Can you just tell people what life is like for you right now in regard to how expensive it is?
Brenda Paniourgias: Well, I keep my electric at 79, which is hot for most people. But it's fine. I unplug the things that take electric. My microwave, my coffee machine. I'll put that in a half an hour before I make my coffee in the morning. And anything to keep my electric bills down. Because the air is going to take a lot. Anything I can save on, I make sure that when I drive my car, I make it in one trip. Work isn't that far. When I found my apartment, I found it close to the job. But there are always added expenses, you know, that you really, they add up. So yes, do I work for fun? No. No. But I love people. And that's half the battle. They're very patient with me. I don't... I was here when they say they want sweet tea or when they want tea, I don't always hear un and might bring them the wrong glass, but people are very kind. They really are. So if I make a mistake, we correct it as quickly as I can.
Keith Vance: Another thing that kind of broke my heart when I was eating dinner and you're talking about your plan B, you made a plan B with the vehicle that you drive.
Brenda Paniourgias: Five years ago, I didn't think it would go through because of my finances, but I ended up buying my first new car, a Ford Black Connect, big enough that it holds my single mattress. And there have been times that I have lived in it for short periods of time. You can put the mattress up and bungee cord it down. When it's down, it fits a small row of plastic containers for your clothes. And bought that for when I can't afford rent, when I finally can't carry those heavy, hot dishes. I have a place to live. I didn't realize at the time, surprised when they did pass for my credit to get it for me. I kept telling them they can't lose because if I can't pay for it, they can pick it up and it's going to be in brand new condition. And somehow, I think God must have been watching because it all went through. And I got the van. And although I didn't realize how many years I'd be paying for it, it's a 2021.
Brenda Paniourgias: And I think I still have another year and a half to pay on it. So hopefully Cracker Barrel will keep me at least for a year and a half if I can keep going.
Keith Vance: So speaking of Cracker Barrel, Michael, you need to put in the link, the Cracker Barrel that she works at, stick in the link. And then everybody that watches this podcast, she works on weekends, right?
Brenda Paniourgias: I work, it fluctuates now with off-season, but I work dinners from either two to four nights a week. And it alternates every week, it changes. All right.
Keith Vance: So if you're in the Fort Myers area where we're at, you put that description of that Cracker Barrel in the link and ask for Brenda. Oh, my. And we need to support our community here. No.
Brenda Paniourgias: Ask for anybody because the business is what counts to keep all of them having jobs, not just me, but all of them having jobs. And Cracker Barrel, they've gone through a lot of negativity, but they're one of the few restaurants that will hire you when you get my age. And I had that open heart triple bypass two years ago, and they let me come back in two months when I was able to work again. What restaurant is going to let an old lady come back to work? I mean, they have a heart. I don't care what color they ever painted. They could paint it sky blue pink, and I would be happy with them.
Keith Vance: I was going to ask you about your surgery for your heart, but you brought it up. So let's go. I'll take it that it was meant to be. Okay. So when did that happen? What was the circumstance of that? You told me you got right back to work quick because you can't miss work. So let's talk about how did that feel? How did you know you had a heart condition?
Brenda Paniourgias: Let's just. I had already had at different times 13 heart stents. Wow. And they had told me that it was basically a Band-Aid. And I was at the time living with my daughter in an illegal apartment at a storage unit. You couldn't go out unless you went through the office or the garage doors. My daughter had the living room, and I had the hallway in my single mattress. When I got the pain and the nausea, I knew right away. Crawled through the garage because I couldn't stand. I was dizzy and nauseous and got to the office and propped the door open with my foot. And luckily, the gate was broken at the time to get into the street. storage unit. So I called the ambulance and they could get through the gate. But that was the beginning of the end of a loving relationship because it made everybody aware that we were there and could affect her job. And I think that was the beginning of a relationship with my remaining, with my only daughter. So anyway, I went to the hospital, figured by then it was passing. I didn't feel the pain, stopped the nausea. And I thought, oh, this is going to be a waste of money. Um, but they talked me into going through the tests and that's when they said there, I had to have the, uh,
Brenda Paniourgias: all the tests and said there was a blockage and I'd have to have a hard, uh, the open bypass. Open bypass. I did. And they did it. And you were out of work for how long from that? Two months. Uh, you couldn't lift, uh, more than 20 and then 40 pounds. So, and the dishes at work are very heavy because you have to have a tray. Um, Um, so it took me two months of being out of work and, um, that was a scary time. I know it was for you. Because I, I never want to have to, I don't want anybody to have to take care of me. I want to be able to take care of myself. Um, and that's what I intend to do. They promised me that it would be good for 10 years and this September it's two years. So I got eight more years. I plan on being okay.
Keith Vance: You got a better warranty on that than your, uh, your Ford, your Ford, uh, van there. So.
Brenda Paniourgias: But then I have a plan B too for when that doesn't, I, um, I make little beaded angels and I sell them out of the flea market. Now I'd started that, uh, a little while ago. Um, and it's a little bit of an income to plan B when plan A doesn't work out. And I'm old enough and smart enough to know that I'm not going to be able to do that forever too. So I have to have some kind of an income. And if that isn't enough to pay for the apartment, I got my car and it's not bad. You'd be surprised. There are places that do let you park as long as you don't park there consistently, Walmart, gas stations, um, the truck stops. As long as you don't stay a number of nights, the police will come. So, um, and you still have your own thing. You're not bothering anybody. You're not, um, you're not being a burden. You're not, they don't have to take care of you.
Keith Vance: So I got a couple of thoughts. The first thing I'm going to ask you is where's the flea market you're at? Flea masters, flea masters, Michael, do your thing. Oh my God. And then what's the name of your business?
Brenda Paniourgias: Uh, angels in waiting. It's the red aisle. Um, I was on the craft aisle. Um, and my angels sell during the holidays, but during the rest of the year, it's wasn't making it. So I went into selling household items and, uh, things I pick up, um, at Goodwills, uh, yard sales. Uh, and that's paying the rent there plus a little bit extra, which is, that's all you can hope for in the summer months when there's no, um, vacationers down. So plus it gives me time to be with people and out and a reason to get up and get moving. And that's half the battle. Uh, I don't want to sit and watch TV all day long. Um, use it or lose it. You've got to keep going with that.
Keith Vance: I agree with that. The other thing, the other thing I want to, I want to say is
Keith Vance: it's, I'm sad that we're even having this conversation in the United States when we're like the most prosperous nation that are elderly. I'm having a conversation with an elderly person and that she's talking about, hey, you can sleep in a Walmart parking lot. But I feel like with inflation and just where we're at in this world right now, this may be something we need to navigate through.
Brenda Paniourgias: It's happening to a lot more people than you realize. I know.
Keith Vance: I know. So I don't know what the answer is. For people that are already living it, but like you said, younger people, plan B, don't assume Social Security is going to cover.
Brenda Paniourgias: They don't know if they're going to get it.
Keith Vance: We need to be self-sufficient as much as we can. And if you make a dollar, say 50 cents. So I don't know what the answer is, but I feel like it's going to get harder before it gets easier.
Brenda Paniourgias: That and kindness, because you don't know what people are running through. You don't know when they come in and they're not happy with things. It might be more than what's happening at that moment that they're not happy with. So just kill them with kindness. That's all you can do.
Keith Vance: And then the other thing is, like, it wasn't a coincidence that I was having those thoughts that I went up there and I saw you. And I happened to have a stack of cash in the center console of my truck and I went out and got it and gave it to you. So just...
Brenda Paniourgias: That made me feel guilty, though, because I don't want people to feel sorry for me either. I don't feel sorry for you, though.
Keith Vance: I'm working because I'm blessed enough that I can work. No, let me finish my thought.
Keith Vance: But if someone has been blessed, get out of your own circle. Look around the room. And if someone is impressed on you that could use some help, be generous. That's all I'm saying. Okay? You never know. So this is on multiple fronts. Okay? So we've talked enough about that. Now let's get into your life story. I know some things about you. I know that you're a ballerina. I don't want to get to there yet. But let's start at the beginning. Let's start at the very beginning. How were you raised? Let's just go real slow. Where were you born? How many siblings did you have? What was life like for you? What did your dad do for a living? You ready? Okay. You're almost 82 years old, so this is going to be a long story. Oh, my gosh. So take your time. We've got all night. You ready? Okay. All right. Let's do it.
Brenda Paniourgias: I was born in a little town in New Jersey, Westmont. My father was very well educated, an editor and a publisher of a banking magazine. I was the middle child, two above me and two below me. I'm the last of them living. My father had difficulty finding a religion that he was happy with. So we went to all different churches and never really associated with one. I was a little bit of an odd duck. I wasn't the brightest light bulb in the room for sure. I couldn't retain things. I couldn't retain things. I had difficulty in fourth grade on multiplication and couldn't memorize that for the life of me and had to repeat fourth grade. It devastated me that now I was taller and older and more awkward in fifth grade. In those days when they picked game teams, I was the last to be picked. Always self-conscious. Always self-conscious. We did not have a lot of money. So if my sister wore one of my outfits for school, left me one short for the week. Just was very uncomfortable. Very uncomfortable in school.
Brenda Paniourgias: Later on in high school, if they were allowed to vote class dog, by then I would have been voted class dog. I was studying ballet and going off into Philadelphia by myself on the bus. Wore my hair back and was more into my own little world. I had a lot of awkward experiences growing up that made things more difficult. difficult.
Keith Vance: What you're describing, you're okay, just process your thoughts, you're doing good. So what you're describing is you always felt like the outsider. I was the outsider. And people made you feel like the outsider.
Brenda Paniourgias: One particular time, well there were two, but one particular time devastated me. One of the popular girls had invited me two days before her birthday to a party. First party in fifth grade that I had ever been invited to. I was unbelievably excited. My mother even bought me a new little skirt, bought me a present to take over. The party was at 12 o'clock on Saturday. I went over 12 o'clock on Saturday and knocked on her door. A little glass mirror and two faces came, her and her girlfriend, and they were laughing and laughing and laughing. And went away from the door and I knocked again and stood back and she came to the door and opened it and said there wasn't any party and I wasn't invited. I cried all the way home. Well, I took 32 aspirin that night. I just did not want to live.
Brenda Paniourgias: It bothered me more even today thinking about how foolish it was. My father called the doctors and because my father had made me bring a lot of it up, the doctor said unless my ears were ringing, I didn't have to go to the hospital, that there would be a record of it and whatever. was after that, my father got me into ballet and I seemed to find something that made me feel good about myself for the first time. So he paid for lessons for me and that's when I got into high school, I would take the bus into Philadelphia and study dancing and I found my own little niche for a while. It was just, I got into opera ballet. I did operas like Carmen, Aida, Traviata, Lockme, Border Bride, Faust, which was classical ballet. The other was more character ballet. But it just made me find something that made me feel good about myself. So that's where my life went for quite a few years.
Keith Vance: Can I ask you a couple of questions here? Sure.
Keith Vance: You said in, I think it was fourth grade, you said multiplication tables, like you felt like the outsider, it felt like it escalated and you always felt like you were, you said in high school, I would have been voted class dog. Mm-hmm. Were your parents aware of what was going on? Did it escalate with the birthday party story?
Brenda Paniourgias: I think that's the first they were aware of how I felt enough that I was that desperate that I didn't want to continue living.
Brenda Paniourgias: I think my father panicked and didn't know how to handle it. Um, but because I liked music and seemed to be always moving around.
Keith Vance: Um, so he, he knew you. Mm-hmm. And so he gave like the ballet was his something that gave you the focus on because he knows you like dancing or whatever. So that was his idea, like to help you. Yes. Got it. Yes.
Brenda Paniourgias: It was totally his idea.
Keith Vance: Um, You haven't said too much about your mom. You're talking about your dad, but not your mom. Is your mom in the story? What was her, what was her influence on you?
Brenda Paniourgias: My father wanted to be a merchant marine. He never particularly wanted to get married. Um, never particularly wanted to have children from what I understand. Um, and every four years they separated. And every four years they got back together because my mother would get together and have another child. We were all four years apart. Um, uh, the last, my young. The sister was Montloyde, Down Syndrome, they called them now, where before they, it was called,
Brenda Paniourgias: and that brought my other hard part into life, because she was so beautiful and so sweet, and when I took her to a playground one day, I put her, it was my turn to watch her, and I put her in the playground, and there were two other little kids playing in the sandbox, and she went over and sat next to them, and the parents shortly thereafter came over, picked their children up, and put them in the other end of the playground. And that was the first that made me aware that there was an unhappiness with her, so I became closer to her. But then when I was in high school, I was with my mother and my little sister, and she was in the cart, and a woman came over, and that was my other part that was unhappy. She came over to my mother, who was in change of life by then, and Heidi was a change of life baby, and she said, well, whosever baby it is, and looked at me, said, congratulations, and looked at me. And it didn't dawn on me until on the way home that she thought Heidi was mine, not my mother's.
Brenda Paniourgias: And I thought,
Brenda Paniourgias: well, I didn't miss any days of school. Why would they think that? I understood. It just, just so many things, so many little things in life really affect you, whether they're right or wrong. You don't realize, and of course, you don't say anything. Parents have no idea, a lot of times, what's really going through their children's heads. They really don't. It's true. It's true. It's sad. And it's sad that children are afraid to open up, sometimes to be as honest. You know, I just went more into my own little groove. Yeah. So.
Keith Vance: Yeah. There's definitely a lesson to learn from that on both sides. Parents, parents, parents build roads. Pay attention to the little things. Build roads to your children's heart and pay attention to the little things. Right. And then children should feel.
Brenda Paniourgias: They might think you're over it. But you carry that, a lot of it, for years to come. Yeah. You know. Anyway.
Keith Vance: One thing, you talked about ballet, and that was one thing. Yes. When I asked you how old you are waiting tables, and you said, hey, I used to be a ballet dancer. And you said, I think that's why I can do this in my older age, because I have strong legs.
Brenda Paniourgias: And it kept me from smoking and drinking. Because I never, even now, at my age, I've never had a drink. I'm wrong. Once in my life, I had a Bahama mama. So I can't say never in my life. But it kept me from drinking and smoking. Although many times later on in my life, I thought about doing both. But, you know.
Keith Vance: So you found peace, and dancing gave you an escape. It gave you a focus. It found peace. Is there anything else in the dancing world you want to talk about? Because I don't want to miss this. If this is something where you found your identity and your happiness, and you could relax your mind, I don't want to jump over it. But I don't know what questions to ask here.
Brenda Paniourgias: It was wonderful. For many years, experiences that other people would not have. Like coming down at the Academy of Music, spiral staircases, and walking into a man, Jerome Hines, dressed as Mustopheles, the devil, in Faust. And he gave me one of those hearty devil laughs. To this day, I can hear that laugh that he gave me. Just being so young and looking up into the devil. And going out on the stage before anybody's there and seeing all the seats. Because once you're dancing, it's only a black curtain. The devil. The devil. The devil. You don't see the seats. You don't see the people. You just see a sea of blackness. Got it. So the memories last forever, and those are the good memories.
Keith Vance: And you didn't feel self-conscious dancing in front of, while people were watching?
Brenda Paniourgias: Because you can't see them.
Keith Vance: You can't see them.
Brenda Paniourgias: You can't see them.
Keith Vance: And you're in another world. You're just doing your thing in another world. Got it.
Brenda Paniourgias: And I danced with the New York City Festival Opera Company at the outside amphitheater and continued on to Montreal. Well, I took lessons with Balanchine in New York, but that was a little bit of awakening. And then in Montreal, studying dancing under Madame Chiriev, I realized that I had started too late. I was too tall, and I didn't have it. Oh. To be...
Keith Vance: To progress as a professional. Exactly. You missed the timeline.
Brenda Paniourgias: I came back to New Jersey, devastated. No plan B. How many years did you dance for? Oh. Oh. From fifth grade through another year after graduation. It was there in Montreal, I realized. So, came back. Didn't have a plan B. Walked into... Walked into... Walked into a Greek diner saying I was experienced. When I had no... They knew on my first egg order, I didn't know the difference from two people or two eggs. But they were patient and kind with me. And I worked as fast as I could. And started a life... Oh. No, I didn't. That wasn't when I worked. That's when I worked... I'm sorry. My first job was walking into the White Tower.
Brenda Paniourgias: Hamburgers. And they hired me. Shortly thereafter, met a tall, good-looking policeman. And he was my husband shortly thereafter. After...
Keith Vance: So, how... What's your age during this timeline? How old are you about?
Brenda Paniourgias: I was 19. Oh, 19. 19 when... When we got married.
Keith Vance: So, you've been in the restaurant business... Off and on. Hospitality business for a while. Yes. Got it.
Brenda Paniourgias: Yes. I got married and we had...
Keith Vance: At 19 you got married?
Brenda Paniourgias: I beg your pardon?
Keith Vance: At 19 you got married?
Brenda Paniourgias: At 19, yep. And we had three children and three stomach operation. I was prone for cysts. So, every year my vacation was either having a child or a stomach operation. But I found my niche being married too. I was heart fund chairman, library chairman, PTA president. I found my niche again. Good. I felt so wonderful to be married to a tall, good-looking man who seemed to love me. And I turned Catholic so that we would raise our family in the same religion because he was Catholic. And had the next best eight to nine years of my life.
Keith Vance: So, in eight to nine years you had three children? Three children, yes. And you found your identity and your joy and your purpose in being a mother and a wife.
Brenda Paniourgias: A whole new different kind of life and happiness again. Feeling good about myself again.
Keith Vance: So, before we jump over that too much, he was a policeman. Yes. So, you said he came into the restaurant? Oh, yes.
Keith Vance: How long was it before you guys went on your first date? What was that like?
Brenda Paniourgias: It wasn't long. It wasn't long at all. He was single. I was single.
Keith Vance: I hope you were. You were 19, girl.
Brenda Paniourgias: Well, you never know in today's day and age. And we just started dating. And it was just wonderful.
Keith Vance: How long did you date before you got married?
Brenda Paniourgias: Maybe about a year.
Brenda Paniourgias: Maybe about a year.
Keith Vance: That's a good amount of time.
Brenda Paniourgias: I don't even think it was that long. I think we pretty much got married shortly thereafter.
Brenda Paniourgias: Trying to... We're going back a lot of years.
Keith Vance: Yeah, yeah. A year's a good amount of time to get to know somebody. So you did your due diligence.
Brenda Paniourgias: It lasted till two weeks after Christmas. He came home.
Keith Vance: This is year eight or nine of being married?
Brenda Paniourgias: Yeah, about the ninth year.
Keith Vance: Nine years of being married.
Brenda Paniourgias: He came back two weeks after Christmas and sat me down, told me all the things I was good at, but that he had fallen out of love with me and into love with our friend's daughter. Dang. It just... I went from 115 pounds to 82 pounds. I couldn't eat. I couldn't sleep. It was... I thought if we could get through that, we could get through anything. Miniskirts were in. She only came up to me here. She was a little tiny girl. And he's six foot two. She was ten years younger than him, five years younger than me. A lot of complications. Anyway, he stayed for almost... almost another year. year. I didn't realize at the time, because he had moved his way up in the police field. He was deputy chief. I didn't realize that by him staying for a year and me trying harder to make him love me. Um... And I waited on him hand and foot, because that was my job, was to take care of him and the children. Um... I didn't realize that by doing that, it was classified as no-fault marriage, or it was... the divorce was no fault. And on my 30th birthday, I received the divorce papers.
Keith Vance: Before you get to the divorce, you said you guys stayed together for a year and you were trying to make it work. Yes. Was he trying to make it work?
Brenda Paniourgias: I thought he was. But when I looked back at things, there were times that he would still go out with the guys, and it wasn't the guys he was going out with. He was definitely, um... smarter than I was. He knew the laws. He knew the judge on a first-name basis. When I got the divorce, not only was I responsible for the house, the mortgage payments, and everything else, I got for three children $75 a week child support. Um... And he still owned half the house. So I went back to waitressing because I had to have a job. I went back to waitressing. And after a while, I thought, the house is still half his. Um... He was going to do this. He was going to do that. We were going to do this. I remortgaged and bought him out so that he would have his money. And I would have the house and... Because I would wallpaper and paint and, um... I was a homemaker. What could I tell you? Um... But the house still didn't feel like it was mine. It still felt like it was his. It was still in the same town. It was still him getting married to her. Um... It was just... So I thought by remortgaging, that was my plan B. Remortgage. Be self-sufficient again. Be on my own. Be... And I had the children. Um... And... And that gave me something to live for.
Keith Vance: Um... You're moving too fast for me. There's so much stuff here and my emotions aren't catching up. Which is part of... You know, you've rehearsed this a million times in your head and I'm hearing it for the first time. So I'm trying to catch up with you.
Brenda Paniourgias: I had a bunch of different lives. What can I tell you?
Keith Vance: There is this recurring theme because we started the end of your story and now we're somewhere in the... The beginning of it, and you even said it, I don't want anybody, I don't want to be dependent on anybody. I don't want anybody to take care of me, and here you are buying him out and being self-sufficient. So, there's this reoccurring theme with you of self-sufficiency, figuring it out.
Brenda Paniourgias: Trying to do the best I can.
Keith Vance: And I admire that, but I also am sad for you that as the wife, the one that should be taken care of, that you're the one taking on that role when I feel like he should have done that.
Brenda Paniourgias: If you don't have a choice, you have to do what you have to do.
Keith Vance: You've got to do what you've got to do, right? Again, Still Strong, is this where I lay down and die, or do I figure it out? And this is why I wanted you on the podcast, because you're that person that always figured it out in spite of. Some days. And I'm just amazed. Let's just sit here for a few minutes, because I need to catch up my emotions with where you're at right now. I always heard a friend of mine, his wife, was seeing someone else, and then he was trying to win her back, and they were trying to work it out. And he said, Keith, all I did was prolong the inevitable. It was his, based on his journey, it was his wisdom that when someone wants out, when someone wants out.
Brenda Paniourgias: Nothing you can do.
Keith Vance: There's nothing you can do.
Brenda Paniourgias: Oh, I brought in a priest and everything to try to talk to him. I mean.
Keith Vance: So here you are, making yourself crazy, trying to be a good wife, and waiting on him hand and foot to make it work. But if the other person doesn't want to make it work, I don't know what the answer is to that, but it's just, my heart goes out to you.
Brenda Paniourgias: Maybe it does work for some people. You have to do what's in your heart. If you want it bad enough, you have to go for it. And then you know that you did everything you could possibly do to make it work.
Keith Vance: Did you have anybody to talk to during this time that you could confide in and talk it out with?
Brenda Paniourgias: No. My father had passed away.
Keith Vance: So I think that's, I think.
Brenda Paniourgias: Our family is divided.
Keith Vance: I think that for someone going through this, when you're in those times where you're bewildered and things is upside down, I think talking to someone outside the bubble, outside the situation is helpful. Like someone that you can trust to, because you're having these emotions and your emotions are on fire to get someone else perspective. And you didn't have that.
Brenda Paniourgias: It's frightening to really know who to trust, because here you trusted someone that you loved, that there would be honesty if things weren't good. Or, you know, it just, it mixes you up so bad. It divided our families. Everybody that we were close to, now there was a division. His side of the family was not my side of the family anymore.
Keith Vance: And what you're telling me is you had no one you could confide in and just help reassort. I fell apart. There was no one that could help reassort the puzzle pieces together for you.
Brenda Paniourgias: The priest couldn't even bring it together. He had just point blank said no, no. It was then I realized that the year I was trying to make it, he was just getting us to no fault.
Keith Vance: Oh, he had a game plan. He was working his plan.
Brenda Paniourgias: He had a game plan, and I did not.
Keith Vance: You weren't aware of it.
Brenda Paniourgias: I did not have a plan B. My plan A was we were going to make that work no matter what. No matter what I could do. That was my plan.
Keith Vance: Let me ask you, again, my emotions are catching up. What were your emotions during this time? Were you ever bitter?
Brenda Paniourgias: Yes. Yes. Oh, without a doubt. Worse than that, my mother was bitter. And she did a couple nasty things that, you know, if she ran across, again, small town, she saw the pain. But she was raising her own child, you know, Heidi.
Brenda Paniourgias: It was just, like I said, I went down to 82 pounds. I couldn't eat. I couldn't sleep. You're trying to make it. Maybe part of me would like to think that he stayed that long to keep me together. The death of death. The death of death. The death of death. The death of death. Thank you. But then the other part was no, because he wanted to pay for me to fly to Las Vegas to get a divorce in a hurry.
Brenda Paniourgias: So for three days, I did pack. And I did think he wanted to set me up with an apartment. He said it would be better for the children. They'd still have a mother and a father rather than a divided. That he could not afford to raise two families. So for three days, I did pack. And I did think, okay, the children have to have two parents. That would be the best for the children. But I couldn't do it.
Keith Vance: What do you mean you packed? I don't understand.
Brenda Paniourgias: Packed to move out to let him have the house and the three kids. You were just going to leave. And her, so that they'd have everything the same. They wouldn't be uprooted. They would have two parents.
Keith Vance: He was just going to discard you. He was going to start a new family and just discard you.
Brenda Paniourgias: And that I was young enough to start over and that I would find somebody. So for three days, I did try to pack, try to go along with what he wanted.
Keith Vance: But you just couldn't do it.
Brenda Paniourgias: And then I got selfish and said, no, I can't do that.
Keith Vance: No, I don't think you're selfish. I think you got a moment of...
Brenda Paniourgias: I felt selfish at the time.
Keith Vance: No, I think you got a moment of clarity. Yeah.
Brenda Paniourgias: I didn't know what was best for the kids. But the only thing I kept thinking...
Keith Vance: Slide that microphone in front of you.
Brenda Paniourgias: The only thing I kept thinking of is once they had their own children, would she put my children aside? So that's the final decision.
Keith Vance: And how old were you during this time?
Brenda Paniourgias: 30. Well, almost 30 because I got... The divorce came final on my 30th birthday.
Keith Vance: And how old were your children at this time?
Brenda Paniourgias: Pre-teen, 13, 12, 10. Wow. Because the boys were 11 months apart and she was a year and a half later. Got it.
Keith Vance: So... I feel like there's more here, but I don't know what to ask you. I just... I just... To be honest with you... They were rough years. I... And this is my recurring theme. Mm-hmm. If I could time travel and I knew you back then, that's what I'd go back to. I would show up somewhere in the middle of the night and just take care of him. Like, I just cannot stand that behavior when men are supposed to be provider protectors, being unselfish. And when a man uses his authority or whatever he is in life to be selfish and to... I have a hard time with that girl.
Brenda Paniourgias: But if you're not happy in your life, is it better to make the decision to move on? We all have to live with our decisions. And he was caught in an awkward, terrible pulling situation. And I can understand things do happen. Things happen that you can't change. And what is best for everybody.
Keith Vance: So, you know, how do you know what was best? Did his life at least end up miserable? Please tell me it did. What? Did his life at least end up miserable?
Brenda Paniourgias: No. They have both passed away. Oh. He passed away two years ago and she passed away a year ago. Oh, so they stayed together. Again, I'm outliving everybody. Oh, God. But, anyway.
Keith Vance: Yeah, let's get back on track. So...
Brenda Paniourgias: A day after divorce.
Keith Vance: You bought them out. You have the mortgage. Remortgage. Not going to be dependent on anybody. That wasn't the answer. You went back to work.
Brenda Paniourgias: That wasn't the answer. Had to go back to work when I remortgaged. It took me far more than I realized. I ended up selling that house, putting that money down on another house. Because you could do that back then. Houses weren't that expensive. And with working, I had an income. And I kept that house until the kids got to start to graduate. Meanwhile, that's when I had gone into... The day after divorce is where...
Keith Vance: I want you to pause for a second. Michael, you and I had a conversation before. And you said... I asked you, you know, what's it like sitting in the room listening to someone's story? And you said sometimes you would have asked a question that I didn't. I feel like this is a perfect... Example, because I feel like there's another angle. So, just jot down a couple. Like, when we get close to wrapping up, if there's a couple questions that you'd like to ask you think would be pertinent, just jot them down. And I'll give you a shot, right? Just to get another angle at this. Like, having her here and hearing this story, I feel like there's a lot here, and I might not be catching all of it. So, yeah, man. All right, sorry, go ahead.
Brenda Paniourgias: Okay, the day after the divorce, when I found out I had to pay for everything, the house and everything, and that $75 a week child support was not going to make it for three children. That wasn't even our grocery bill. I walked into the Greek diner. That's when I walked into the Greek diner and said I was experienced. Ended up dating the Greek cook who told me at the end of the weekend, I guess they're going to keep you. I didn't want to bring a lot of men into my children's lives. No, blame me. He had one day off a week. So, we dated for 12 years. Wow. Until my kids were grown. Because I met him when my kids were pre-teen. A lot of men weren't going to put up with a woman with three pre-teen.
Keith Vance: I think especially in that day and time. It was a different time back then.
Brenda Paniourgias: Yes, yes. And then being a waitress. So, anyway, we dated for 12 years. It was just enough to get us to where my kids were pretty much grown and on their own. It still made me feel independent, although he was a help. And he had a stroke.
Brenda Paniourgias: And that's when we sat and had a talk. The state was going to come take him and put him in a home because he was a cook and started to drool. Couldn't work. So, we sat down and I said, this is what's happening. The state is coming in. They're going to take you. Either that or do you want to get married? We got married.
Brenda Paniourgias: We made it, I guess, almost 30 years until he passed away. He got better little by little. He didn't drool as much. I had to quit waitressing. I had to get away from that town. His family did not really accept me that well in the beginning because I was not Greek. I had had a full hysterectomy. I could not give him little Greek children.
Brenda Paniourgias: I wasn't accepted again.
Keith Vance: So, again, that's what I was going to say. So, again, you're the outsider. You're not accepted. It was just so ironic because here you've got a guy who had a stroke and can't provide for you. You have compassion on him.
Brenda Paniourgias: He can't provide for himself.
Keith Vance: You have compassion on him and take care of him.
Brenda Paniourgias: Well, he had been with me for 12 years. He had helped me.
Keith Vance: You think his family would appreciate that, but instead they put you to the outside.
Brenda Paniourgias: It took her four years before she would let me take her children to a movie. Who's that? His sister. Sister.
Brenda Paniourgias: They're a Greek family.
Brenda Paniourgias: I saw her slap her son's face once because he talked to somebody in English instead of in Greek. Greek when the person came over and talked to him in Greek. So, it was breaking rules without a doubt.
Keith Vance: Understood. Got it.
Brenda Paniourgias: But she appreciated that we did get married. I did, at that point, wanted to get away from everything. The kids were grown, just leaving on their own, each one. So, we picked up and moved to Florida.
Brenda Paniourgias: He had gotten better, but not enough that I could really leave him. So, what we started doing was going to auctions, buying things, and then reselling them that we could do together. Then I found where there were places that you could go. Go and buy bigger amounts of things, so we started flea marketing. We got involved with a catalog company that sold things that were returns, discontinues when they got down to 100.
Keith Vance: I got a neighbor that does that through Amazon right now. If you get a package that you weren't supposed to get or whatever, and they send them back, he resells them. So, there's a business for anything.
Brenda Paniourgias: Yes. Well, we would get a great big box for only $25, filled with all kinds of things. And we would go down to Miami, where the place was, and pick it up, and that's how we would make a living. And in the beginning, he would sit behind me, and later on, he would stand on the other side of the tables to watch to see if anybody was going to pick something up. And then he got a little bit stronger and a little bit better, and would go to the end of the road to see if anybody else was selling anything. And little by little, he got better, enough that I could get a job. So, I went to Walmart.
Keith Vance: Now, where were we at in this time frame? When you went to Walmart, during this time frame, how old were you? 40s, 50s? How old were you?
Brenda Paniourgias: I guess 50, 60, 70.
Brenda Paniourgias: Somehow, I've skipped it, because when I was dating John, my Greek husband, I went to Woolworths. Started off as a waitress there. I got out of the Greek diners once we started dating, because it was awkward to date a Greek man. And so, I went to Woolworths, started off as a waitress, and worked my way up to food manager. At first, they would send me to the different stores in the different malls that had small food counters. So, I went from Cherry Hill to Omni Mall in Pennsylvania, and a couple of the different malls, and finally ended up at the biggest one, because by then, they're promoting women into big roles. So, I became the food manager of Woolworths in Center City, Philadelphia, a huge store.
Keith Vance: Woolworths sounds familiar to me, because I'm from Michigan. I was a kid. I remember thinking of seeing a Woolworths or hearing Woolworths. I was too young, but Woolworths sounds familiar.
Brenda Paniourgias: They were your five and ten cent store, but they always had food concessions and food courts.
Keith Vance: Was Woolworths up in that Michigan area, up in that?
Brenda Paniourgias: I don't know. My family's from the UP, Menominee, but I don't know. It was too many years before me.
Keith Vance: So, we kind of skipped a little spot. That's why you went back to Woolworths. Yes, yes. Unless there's something there you want to talk about, let's go back to Walmart. I'm sorry to skip about. No, it's okay. And you think you're about 50 years old. Yes. Got it.
Brenda Paniourgias: So, I could work at Walmart as a cashier, and he could go fishing. I could drop him off at the pier. He could go fishing, and he was happy doing that. And little by little, he was doing good. And then things started to happen more. He ended up having a heart problem. He ended up having dementia. Ended up having to leave Walmart.
Keith Vance: What do you mean you ended up having to leave Walmart? Yeah. I had to take care of him. Because your husband... He couldn't be left alone. He couldn't be left alone.
Brenda Paniourgias: And at nighttime, I'd have to put bells on the doors and put a chair underneath so that he couldn't get out.
Keith Vance: How long did that last for, trying to take care of him with dementia?
Brenda Paniourgias: It's terribly hard. It's hard because he would not remember even who I was. And he had a temperament that was scary. There were many times, twice, I ended up saying to him, if you ever hit me, it's the end of things. Because he'd want to get so close. He was so frustrated.
Keith Vance: Um, they're frustrated because they're scared because they don't know where they're at, where there's going on. You're in a constant state of not knowing where you are and people react to it differently. My grandfather had at Alzheimer's and he was always afraid. He was always trying to find his way home. And I'm thinking, what a terrible way to live when you're constantly don't know where you're at. So that anger or whatever that frustration was him just trying to, you're in a constant state of where am I? Right.
Brenda Paniourgias: In the beginning, I could see different frustrations. Like he didn't like it that I was responsible for his social security check or his check. So when we would sell things, I would give him his paycheck, his money for watching the outside, for checking to see if anybody was selling the same thing. And that made him feel like a man again. That, um, sometimes he'd say, I'm going to take you to dinner. And he'd be so proud, you know, and I'd make a big fuss. Yes. Are you sure you can afford it? And things like that, you know, so some things I caught up on. So when it started to change, it was harder on me. Yeah. But we made it through that. He, we, he made it, we made it 30 years.
Keith Vance: How many years did you have to deal with the dementia?
Brenda Paniourgias: I think only about the rougher years were the last just year and a half, uh, just a year and a half.
Keith Vance: And it's a long time. That's a long time. A year and a half is a long time to deal with someone who doesn't know where they're at or what's going on. You have to have patience.
Brenda Paniourgias: Patience. You just have to have patience.
Keith Vance: But you can never let your guard down. You never know what to expect. You just said you're putting bells on the doors and like doing stuff. Yeah.
Brenda Paniourgias: You just have to know that they don't know. That's all. Um, you do a lot of praying. You do a lot of praying and you figure, okay, this was meant to be, this was meant to be. He needed me and I needed somebody. So this was meant to be, this was connecting two people that needed each other.
Keith Vance: Did you have any help when he had dementia? Did you have any help taking care of him?
Brenda Paniourgias: I didn't ask for help.
Keith Vance: So you, you never got a break from it?
Brenda Paniourgias: No, no. Um, we were together 24 seven and that was okay. That was okay too. Um, it was okay.
Keith Vance: Uh, how are you keeping your sanity during this time?
Brenda Paniourgias: I don't know that I ever had my sanity.
Keith Vance: It had to be hard for you watching your, someone you love decline.
Brenda Paniourgias: I still cry a lot.
Keith Vance: You're watching someone you love decline. You had a relationship and now you can't connect in a way that you once did. So you're, you're losing something companionship.
Brenda Paniourgias: So I'm just, I had already been through it once by losing my husband.
Keith Vance: You're used to it.
Brenda Paniourgias: I had already been through it once.
Keith Vance: You're used to it.
Brenda Paniourgias: It's a different kind of love when you marry a second time.
Brenda Paniourgias: Um,
Brenda Paniourgias: this, I think I was meant to find him. Um, and I think he was meant to find me because we didn't have anybody else and we were odd enough in our own ways or different enough. Um, I, I don't know.
Keith Vance: I don't know how we, uh, it's a heavy weight to care, taking for taking care of someone dementia. It's, it's, it's hit close to my circle several times. I have a loved one that's living it right now. Right. So that's why I'm asking you some of these questions, someone who lived it and like, I feel like they need help. Like they just need a break. Hey, can you, can you just like, just to go, go to the park or get, go to dinner, just get a break. And you're telling me you never, you never had a break.
Brenda Paniourgias: My break wasn't without him. My break wasn't to be without him.
Brenda Paniourgias: Um, the company of him. Was my break, you know? Okay. We had 10 years of watching Westerns, nothing else but Westerns, but that made him happy. So I was happy. And that's when I would make my angels or crochet or, um, handcrafts or. something to make me happy. So it was still being happy together, him watching Westerns. And I can name Westerns and their endings. I could end his stories when he would tell the same stories over. I could tell him the ending, hoping that would change it into another story, and it wouldn't, he would still tell. But you live with that, and you know it made him happy, and that's all that really mattered. That's what made life happy, you know. Making the other person happy too. And knowing that was satisfying your needs.
Keith Vance: That must be something that's naturally in a woman, because you just said something that...
Keith Vance: Making your wife happy. My wife, man, she lives to make everybody happy. Like, everybody comes over and she's staying busy. I say, hey, will you just sit down and relax? I like doing this. I like making everybody happy. That must be something special.
Brenda Paniourgias: You give him the biggest piece of meat.
Keith Vance: That must be something special in a woman. And then again, with your profession of being a server, serving, making people happy, like it just all... God makes everybody unique in their special way.
Brenda Paniourgias: You have to like people. To work with people, to live with people, you have to like people. And you have to know that, okay, maybe they're having a bad day. Maybe it's not what's going on that very minute that's making them happy. Just kill them with kindness, because you don't know what their day has brought. But, you know... I didn't know where... That's what makes even being a waitress, sometimes when it isn't the happiest of times, you make it the happiest times.
Keith Vance: I didn't know we were going to be talking about all this stuff. I didn't even know that about your husband. But I think if I would have walked your road, I think I'd be a very bitter person. If my spouse left me for someone else, if in life I find a new person, now they have dementia, and I'm taking care of them, I think I would be like looking at me, why me, and make it about me. And the fact that I don't see any of that in you, it's just... You're a special person. You go through phases.
Brenda Paniourgias: I really liked her. I could see why he was attracted to her. I could feel the guilt of when things happened.
Brenda Paniourgias: A lot of complications, what can I tell you? You have to put yourself in somebody else's shoes for a while and think, you know, all you can do is the best that you can. And know that you don't have the regrets because you did the best that you can. That's all.
Keith Vance: That's good advice. That's good advice.
Brenda Paniourgias: Even with the children. You don't know how they're going to look at you or how things are going to happen later on. All you can do is the best that you can and figure you did the best that you can.
Keith Vance: That's good advice. That's it. Let's get back to husband number two. You said the last year and a half you were taking care of him with a dementia.
Brenda Paniourgias: And one morning he had passed away in the night.
Brenda Paniourgias: Plan B. Let's hear it. Often wondered. It sounds terrible. And this will sound terrible. But in my heart, I kind of wished when we got older that he would pass on before me because I didn't know what would happen to him or who would take care of him or how he would survive or how unhappy he would be for a change. Because it was difficult. Change was difficult for him. So when he did pass, I felt mixed emotions because he was gone. But because at some point I had thought to myself, he should pass before me. So you're torn on a lot of different feelings throughout your whole life.
Keith Vance: How old were you when he died, more or less?
Brenda Paniourgias: Oh, golly, years go by so fast. We were married 30. That would have made me 60. At least 60. Now, 65, 65 at least.
Keith Vance: 65.
Brenda Paniourgias: We dated 12 years, so closer to 70, I guess, because I've been on my own now, off and on, between my daughter and me, I guess 10 years. So I guess it was closer to 70.
Keith Vance: Closer to 70. So you've been on all of it.
Brenda Paniourgias: It's funny, years go by, and you don't even pay attention to how old or things like that. You don't.
Keith Vance: It's funny because we were talking about that on the way here. Like a guy said, hey, Keith, how was your day? I said, it's the same as every other day. I said, I just feel like the days go faster. I do the same things, but the days go faster. Yes. And the other weird thing is, like when I think about, my mom had a birthday a while ago, and in my mind when I picture my mom, she's 40. She can't be 40 because I'm 50. Totally. But so when you just said, oh, I must have been 50, or I was 70, like that happens to me. You have these certain moments get stuck in time almost, and you think, oh, I must have been 40. No. Oh, wow, no, I was 70 when that happened. So that kind of stuff is happening to me right now.
Brenda Paniourgias: My nieces and nephews, I picture them as little kids. I don't picture them as being senior citizens. I was like, oh, my gosh.
Keith Vance: So I'm glad I'm not the only one. All right, girl, where do we go from hearing your story? Oh, I don't know. So you lost your husband.
Brenda Paniourgias: Lost my husband. Made a couple mistakes.
Brenda Paniourgias: I was on Section 8 with my husband.
Keith Vance: Section 8 is government housing.
Brenda Paniourgias: Government housing that we had gotten only a few years before. Made life so much easier.
Keith Vance: Because you pay what you can afford, and the government makes a big difference. Exactly.
Brenda Paniourgias: It was reasonable. When he passed away for a year, I would go over and help my daughter, who my husband and I had signed for her to have a house, co-signed for her to have a house, in a little town on the other coast, Barefoot Bay. So I was running over all the time to take care of her dog and help do a wash because she was working daytime, and I had time. So I would go over and do her wash and take the dog out. And after a year... This is your daughter, you said? My daughter, yes. And after a year, she said, Why don't you move in with me? It's tough for both of us financially. You're coming over every day anyway to help. Move in with me. Mistake. I gave up Section 8 and moved in with my daughter. She had had roommates who had emptied her out at different times and had never been married. And that's when I moved in with her. So my rent went from $300, originally $300 to $500, because I would help out more. And I was working, and so, you know, more and more I would help. And we hit it off pretty much all the time, and I thought things were going good. But she has... My granddaughter lived on this coast and was having her hands full with two children, and they had an on-again, off-again relationship. So we decided, we made the decision to move to this coast and help her out. And I was happy because I wanted them to be together. Got it. My granddaughter and I had always been tremendously close. Good. But she had an on-again, off-again relationship with my daughter and her father. They had never been married, and it was definitely a pull situation all the time. Very bad. So anyway, we moved to this coast. I transferred from the Cracker Barrel that I was working at to this Cracker Barrel over here. I didn't want her to give up her house. We were going... She was going to put it up... For sale, once we found a place over here, when we got over here, she had a new job application to increase her salary with a chance, a better chance of promotions, a better chance for a future, and to reunite all of us. I didn't want her to lose her house, so I picked up more of the financial responsibility so she could keep her house.
Keith Vance: On the other coast.
Brenda Paniourgias: Yes, until we either found something here or she sold that one. But when we got over here, the rents were too high. Finally, she couldn't afford to buy another house because by then, properties after the hurricanes had gone up tremendously high. It was just trying to make ends meet.
Brenda Paniourgias: That's when we were in Benita and I had my open heart triple bypass.
Keith Vance: When you were living in a storage unit. Yes. Got it.
Brenda Paniourgias: Behind a storage unit in an illegal apartment. Understood. It was a rude awakening for both of us. Tremendously. I had enough saved that I could still pay my bills.
Brenda Paniourgias: But it was a definite change, I think, for both of us.
Brenda Paniourgias: We had to move out of there. It couldn't jeopardize her job. And I couldn't stay hidden. So we found an apartment in Fort Myers, close to my granddaughter. She worked daytime. I worked nighttime dinner. So that part worked out pretty good.
Brenda Paniourgias: But I guess I did things that irritated her and didn't know it. Two women living together, both very different. Yes, it's like a marriage. It either works or doesn't work. And some of the years it worked when I was at the other house, you know. But it was definitely more of a strain on both of us once I had had my problem. Plus, I started picking up the whole rent, $1,100 a month, at the apartment. So she could keep her house. And we could still help my granddaughter. But I guess that even must have started to bother me, too. Even though I tried, I would still take her to dinner once a week. We had the money then to still, you know, do a lot.
Brenda Paniourgias: And then it got to the point where I must have done a lot more that she didn't like.
Brenda Paniourgias: Because she stopped talking to me last November. And after a few weeks, I kept saying, we can't live like this. I won't live like this. And after a few more weeks, she wouldn't eat any of my food or let me take out to dinner. I'd call her from work and say, can I get you a taco? Because I knew she liked tacos. And she said, no, I'm not going to eat anything of yours. Because I had made a list of all the things that I did for her. For her, why was she not talking to me?
Brenda Paniourgias: I moved out December 1st. I paid for her rent for December. It was the end of our year's lease. So I paid for her December so that she wouldn't be stuck for the month of December. She had told my granddaughter, if she moves out, I'll never talk to her again.
Brenda Paniourgias: I could not live like that. I could not. I asked my granddaughter what was wrong. And she said, well, besides letting the cat out, we had a... A cat, her stray cat that she had picked up. He was used to being an outside cat, so I'd take him out outside in our fenced-in yard. And she didn't want him out at all. So I knew that was one thing that bugged her. My granddaughter had told me it was because I used her hair ties. But it just got out of hand. What can I tell you? Two women living together on and off for all those years. And it was on and off because there are times we didn't see eye to eye. Do I love her? Absolutely. Did we get along? Not always. But I didn't realize how unhappy she was. Like a marriage, you don't know. And if they don't tell you, you don't know. I can speak to this a little bit. So I moved into an apartment. That's where you're at now. That I live in now. It was better than a car. How long I can afford it? I don't know. But it was nice to have a bathroom of my own. A kitchen. Because in the apartment, she had the bedroom and I had the living room.
Brenda Paniourgias: We finally got a second TV. She got a second little TV because of the differences in programs. I got used to programs like Big Brother. And, you know, it was a lot different than Westerns. What can I tell you? And I thought everything was pretty good. I didn't realize how unhappy I was making her.
Keith Vance: Can I speak to this a little bit? Yeah. Because I struggle with this. Like your daughter sounds a lot like me. I fixate on things. Little things that shouldn't bother me. In my mind, they become big. And if I was to say it out loud, it makes me look petty. Because if I say it out loud, it is petty. The cat. The hair tie. But in your mind, when you hold it in, it's big and it's justifiable. So I know what that feels like. And I'm aware of it. So I'm trying not to do that because we're family. Family should love each other. Family should be able to sit in a room and feel accepted and comfortable. But when I go down that, whatever that is, everybody feels it. And they're all trying to figure out. They're trying to make life work for me. But you didn't do anything wrong, girl. Listen, it wasn't you.
Brenda Paniourgias: It's just everybody. God made us all different. And that's what makes us special. Plus, I never wanted to be a burden on anybody. And as I definitely am going downhill. I know I am. I don't retain things as much. I don't hear as good. You know, have trouble keeping my teeth in all the time. You know. I don't want her or my granddaughter to ever find me dead. I don't want that for them.
Keith Vance: And that's what you think about these days?
Brenda Paniourgias: Yes. Yes. So, am I still independent? Yes. Will I always want to be independent? Yes. Yes. Um, when the wages job can't work out, I have the flea market. If that doesn't work out, I have my car. At some point, when things really, really get to the point where I am concerned, I'm going to be like your old Western. I'm going to drive off in the sunset. I'm going to go to states that I have never been to and see how many states I can get through. Um, just because I've never, I've never even been to the Keys. Uh, I made it from New Jersey down here. And when I was married, we had a camper that we made it all the way out to, um, Mount Rushmore when the kids were little. Um, so would I take one state at a time and do my own thing? Yes. And that will make me happy. It might not make them very happy, but in the long run, it's the answer because it, it's not, it's not putting anybody under an unpleasantness. Life is too short. Make the best of it. the most of it and the happiest you can. Because, man, those years, like we said, start to go by like this. Day blends into day. There are days I get up and wonder what today is. Thank goodness I have a schedule to know what day it is. I can pick up my phone. Oh, today's Tuesday. I've got to go to work, you know. Everything happens quickly. So that's my plan C. And that's I've never mentioned. I always had a plan or never had a plan B. Now I have the plan B in my car, but I have a plan C too. So that, you know, I'm taken care of. And I'm doing what I want to do. And I'm okay.
Keith Vance: I think this is a good place to kind of wind it down and end it because we basically went full circle, didn't we? We did. You did a great job. Thank you.
Brenda Paniourgias: I can't believe I've talked so much about myself in so long.
Keith Vance: This is a podcast people need to watch on multiple levels because we have people that are older that I'm concerned for. And then there's people that are in your shoes. Like we all need to think about how to take care of one another and what that looks like. Before I put a closing thought on this, Michael, I saw you get that microphone pulled up. I see you over there shifting in your chair. You're, you're feeling this brother. So what do you got?
Michael Vance: I think my only question, because I don't, I don't think Keith asked it. Out of all the stories you just told, which seemed almost like they were all just like back to back to back to back. Where did you find, like, you said you started off as a shy, awkward girl. It doesn't sound like you had a super close relationship with either of your parents or any of your siblings or you never really mentioned, like, a best friend. Where did you pick up the, like, the strength or the ability to, like, persevere? I just heard you tell all of these stories that most of which I feel like are enough to put somebody on their butt. And I don't know many people who would get back up. I just heard you end it by romanticizing the idea of you going homeless and you somehow turned it into, I'm going to go see all these places I've never seen before. Like, where did you find that mentality? Like, I'm assuming, because if I'm not horrible at math, I think you were, I think as a kid, you grew up in, like, what, the 40s into the 50s? Like, maybe it's just, like, a generational thing. Yeah, I was born in 44. Okay. And I was born in, like, 1990. So, like, is it a generational thing? Was that just the way you had to be? Like, where did you pick it up?
Brenda Paniourgias: I think from our generation. Yeah. I think our whole generation was like that. You didn't give up on anything. You didn't give up on marriages. You didn't give up on your job.
Brenda Paniourgias: And now, although I didn't realize I was sounding so positive on things, because there are a lot of days I'm totally negative.
Michael Vance: It didn't sound like you never had a bad day. It just, like, your ability to, like, go through something and then looking back at that thing, to look at it in a brighter light than most people would.
Brenda Paniourgias: At this point in my life, I think it's my faith. Do I believe that in the beginning? No. Because the faith part wasn't as strong. Even turning Catholic to make our family united, the priest couldn't help. And I was the one that was trying to hold the marriage together when it wasn't being held together. And then all of a sudden, it felt like I was excommunicated from the church, because then all of a sudden, if you do get married again, you are excommunicated. So I didn't feel part of the Catholic church again. So it put me back into basically where my father was, believing in God, but not quite knowing what religion I fell into, but just that I believe in God and that there is a plan in the long run.
Michael Vance: I just, like, that's pretty much the only question. Like I said, you started the story by romanticizing living out of your connect, and then you ended it by romanticizing being homeless. Like, I don't even want to say romanticize. You find the silver linings in things that most people are like, this is the end.
Brenda Paniourgias: Oh, not all my life.
Michael Vance: I just feel like we could use more people like that.
Brenda Paniourgias: I still cry over a lot of the different things that have happened and been. Wow. And I meant to be more positive on this, but it brings up things that aren't positive.
Brenda Paniourgias: What can I tell you? You've got to love people. That's the main thing. Because that's what everything is about people, whether it's a job or your family. And you've got to give it 110%. And if they don't return it, it's not your fault. But that doesn't mean you can't do it the next time.
Keith Vance: Thank you. Thank you. You give me several days worth of thoughts to digest.
Brenda Paniourgias: I don't know if this is what you wanted. I don't know if this is what you thought it would be or meant. I don't even know really why I decided to do it. Because I never really talk about so much in my whole life.
Keith Vance: This was meant for a reason. You've been an encouragement to me. I know you've been an encouragement to him. When this podcast goes out, I'm just going to help some people.
Brenda Paniourgias: Now I've got to figure out how to see it to see how bad it looks.
Keith Vance: I know a guy. Just to kind of like circle back around to an opportunity that I would have missed if I was into myself. And because I get consumed with what I got to do. I get consumed with my tasks. But God put me in a place where everybody was gone. And I was having these thoughts of not wanting to eat alone. And because I was feeling vulnerable. Because I was feeling lonely. I dialed in on you. Which if I would have went up with my family. I probably wouldn't have even noticed you. You understand? So I'm learning that people cross our paths that isn't random. It's for a reason. It's for a reason. And to go outside of your own little comfort zone. To strike up a conversation with someone. Just ask a couple questions. Two or three questions turned into a whole podcast right here. Right. So that's what is working in me right now. And if more of us can do that. Can share a little. Yes. Ask a few questions. Hey girl, how you doing today? Like that is infectious. So we're all going through something. Some more than others. But a little pat on the back. A little. A little hello.
Brenda Paniourgias: How are you today?
Keith Vance: It goes a long way, doesn't it? Yeah. It does. Anything else you want to share? Are we good?
Brenda Paniourgias: No. I think we're good.
Keith Vance: I think we're more than good. All right. Let's go. Still Strong. Watch me ride my way. Slow growth turns into real change. I found joy in the simple days. In honest work and faith. Still Strong. No rush. No rage. Thank you.