Still Strong #19 LJ Cowan

Intro voiceover: [0:01] I learned the hard way. Nothing's overnight. Some days you lose, some days you survive.

Keith Vance: [0:13] Still L. G. Cowan, welcome to the podcast, brother. Thank you. This is, this is an honor, brother. Appreciate meeting you.

LJ Cowan: [0:34] This is, I didn't sleep well. Feeling the the pressure of what we're gonna talk about. This is a this is a heavy one. But before I give your your, formal introduction, the way we met is, again, there's this theme in my life of no coincidences. Okay. And I just want to share the story of how LJ and I met. So I have a construction company and I was having issues with one of the emails from my clients. I wasn't getting their emails. They were sending them and I was blind to them. I wasn't seeing them. So I used my ChatGBT, I said, Hey, I need an IT guy to help me figure this out. I called somebody. That person wasn't able to help me. They referred me to you. And, the client, their it people kept saying, it's on your side, Keith, it's on your side, Keith. But it wasn't on my side. It was on their side. And it took LJ to figure it out and fix it. But every time LJ, we would talk, you would always, God bless you, Keith. God bless you, Keith. Every time we would try to solve these problems, you would finish the phone call. God bless you. And one day I just said, LJ, God bless you. What does that mean? Like, what's your story? And you hit me with some heavy stuff that we're going to get into. And then you came to our office and my son-in-law, I was out in the field working, my son-in-law, I said, was LJ here? They go, yeah. He's like, he goes to our church. So Chad GPT, find me an IT guy, you and I communicating, you spreading your faith, Hey, God bless you to that. We were at the same church and didn't even know it. And here we are here. We're going to talk about Jesus, we're gonna talk about His goodness, His grace, all that good stuff. Again, no coincidences, man. This is gonna be a powerful one.

Keith Vance: [2:29] God is good. He is good. Yeah. I mean, in chapter 16 of Proverbs, it says, the lot is cast into the lap, but it's every decisions from the Lord. So we know he's sovereign. And I'm I'm hoping that some of, what God's done with a wretch like me can can, help others And, I'm I'm really honored to be able to share.

LJ Cowan: [2:56] We prayed out there in the other room. We're dependent on God's grace. We're dependent on his leadership, his guidance in this conversation, so we're gonna have it. But before we do so, everybody gets a gift, brother. So these are Still Strong hats. They're Richardson one twelves. These are cool. My kids tell me they're the best. Alright? Thank you. So listen, anytime you're doing IT stuff for me, you gotta wear my hat. Okay? You gotta wear my hat. And it looks good on you too. Hallelujah. Man, it looks good on you. It fits perfect.

Keith Vance: [3:27] You feel good? This is this is I mean, this looks great. Thank you. You're welcome. And it's a it's a reminder that our strength is just what where God took me from a place that I I couldn't even tie my shoelaces, and it's nice to just just feel like my, strength is

LJ Cowan: [3:50] comes from the Lord. Where does my help come from? My help comes from the Lord in so many verses, man. Alright, LJ, let's get into it. I'm gonna give you your introduction. LJ Cowan, listen, this kid here, born in Guatemala City, Guatemala to a Canadian mother and a father from Denver, Colorado.

Keith Vance: [4:13] Yeah. They met in, in, London and my my dad, got a job down there teaching business administration, in '74. It was supposed to be for a year. He liked it and stayed another year and another, and it's there nearly fifty years. So

LJ Cowan: [4:32] praise the Lord. And you have one sibling, a younger brother, I believe. Right? Yeah. He's over in in London.

Keith Vance: [4:39] He's just working at Granola now, which is doing really well with his roommate from college and used to to work at at Google. He's a really he's an inspiration to my life. He he really is focused and had a disciplined life, did his homework, very different from me. And bless is my dad here a lot with Good. With that.

LJ Cowan: [5:06] It says here your hobbies and interests. Your hobbies and interests are evangelism, producing worship music, studying the Bible in Hebrew and Greek, and then AI tech development. Do you can you read Hebrew and Greek?

Keith Vance: [5:24] I can pronounce it. I can read it. Can I understand it? Not really. I'm trying to do it as people in Guatemala, a lot of them will learn English through watching English movies and through reading the subtitles, they'll get it. Okay. And so we went through a year of of reading the bible in Hebrew and Greek and read through the everything and on the side either in English or Spanish and also doing some other other classes. But when you don't have people to practice with, I would you know, I know that there's a lot I need to to improve on. But Well,

LJ Cowan: [6:17] yeah, life is all about improvements. Right? Life that we never we never stop learning, but that's, that's an admirable goal to try to consume God's word in its original form?

Keith Vance: [6:30] It's it's very rich. I I mean, the English translations are wonderful, and you can you'd know how to get from a to b in English or Spanish. But when you read it in the originals, you see this rich tapestry of just all the decorations on the tree and the amount of care that God put into his word. And it does bring out things such as in Proverbs the the word heart or lev is used in so many places that is translated as understanding like you know, that when a person is is rebuked, they gain heart or he who lacks, you know, that a lot of things are from a lack of heart. And there's just word orders and probably the most famous is in John 21 where three times in the English translations Jesus will ask Peter, do you love me? And Peter will say, you know everything, all things, you know that I love you. But in Greek the first times Jesus asked do you agape me? And Peter will say you know I phileo you which is not the same word as agape the the love of God until finally Jesus says, Do you me? And it says Peter was disappointed this third time because Jesus said this third time that do you phileo me? And it's some Greek scholars think that that's not that big of a deal but it does bring out something that I I think is really impacting about the statement especially in Spanish, you can see that a bit more like the quiero, the amo. And they there's that interplay that it's really, at least enrichening.

LJ Cowan: [8:37] Agape is a deep love. Fileo is Philadelphia, the city of brotherly love. So do you love me? You know I'm fond of you. You know and then he says, Peter, are you even fond of me?

Keith Vance: [8:52] Basically. Yeah. And but there's there's reasons why people translate, and, some translations do try to capture that in English too. But I'm not yet at the the point of, where I'd wanna put myself as, like, a a Hebrew or Greek scholar. It's more as just somebody who's It was under your hobbies and interests. Hobbies and interests. That's an awesome hobby. Yeah.

LJ Cowan: [9:19] Your career, you're a computer programmer, software development, like that's how you and I met. And you're, you're trying to tell me what's going on with the communication between the client that was working for me and why I wasn't getting it. And I was, I wasn't getting it. I said, just LJ, just as long as you know what's going on, just just fix it and let me know how much it is. Like, I'm glad I'm glad that there's people that understand computers and technology. And to you, I think it's like a language. To me, it's just like Greek and Hebrew, but to you, you can understand it. And thank you for fixing that for me. That went on for months, brother. I was about to give up. I was gonna my wife's like, we should start a new email address, start over. So

Keith Vance: [10:07] Yeah. It's I I mean, since I was very young, I just really liked computers. I wanted to be a computer game programmer. Eventually it led into me getting into web development and more on the business aspect and we're on the phone with Microsoft for a while until they found out it was with their settings. But it's you know, mean you see somebody, it's just the amount of time that I've spent in it. I've been in it for like thirty years and you just kind of when you have an interest and you spend time, you just know more about it. Yeah. Probably as you do with construction, somebody with, the piano, who's been in it. It's just amazing to, you know, like how how do they do that? And it's just amazing to see what, God can can put in a person when you spend time on a graft. Like I'm I'm not even all that good at it but I can understand like, as somebody who doesn't know much about it when you, see somebody else do it, it can look

LJ Cowan: [11:16] neat. One of the main reasons why you're sitting in this chair is you were diagnosed at some point in your life with schizoaffective bipolar. What is that?

Keith Vance: [11:32] Yeah. Well, it's a bipolar disorder is where your moods tend to swing into, they change the terms through time but let's say mania is where you have an elated sense of yourself, your abilities, maybe even life in general, and you might go from anything from, very productive to, just all out kinda crazy about life and just over amplified with your your your thoughts about your abilities and and then and your your feeling of well-being especially and then it will swing into depression which usually lasts longer. But in states of mania people can often do things that are very harmful and then in states of depression people will go into suicidal tendencies at times, not find any meaning or anything in life that would be worth holding on to and they can't even grasp how that could even exist. And then schizoaffective, I've had people say it's kind of has has symptoms of people who have had it's not schizophrenia but it does have these delusional thoughts that are associated with it and the the words are related. I've had some friends with schizophrenia and so I noticed that their detachment, seemed a little bit different than the way I would have described mine but that's the term for it.

LJ Cowan: [13:21] We're gonna spend some time during the podcast talking about mental disorder, mental health. Again, that's the main reason why you're here, but we're gonna build up to it. You're also 46 years old. What does 46 years old feel like to you? I just turned 50 in January. What does 46 feel like to you?

Keith Vance: [13:44] Congrats. I mean, in Christ, I feel better than ever. I feel new every day. I feel refreshed. Good. This tent I'm in, not the best. You know, I'm starting to feel that, I better not jump off, like, as high as, I would have in the past. And, you know, so there's there's some pains that that that come, but it's it's not too bad. And, I feel as as you get older, your your axe is sharper, but you can't swing it as hard maybe. That's a good analogy.

LJ Cowan: [14:24] I like that. That's a good analogy. Right, brother. Let's get into it. So let's get into it. So, I mean, let's start with childhood. So you have a Canadian mother, a father born in Denver, Colorado, and you're born in Guatemala. So you are a light skinned person, so let's just talk about what life was like for you, your childhood in Guatemala. It's it's interesting. It's it's it's an interesting it's not a typical story. So what was like what was like life for you as growing up as a child in Guatemala?

Keith Vance: [15:03] I mean, I know that for down there we were more well off than most people. I wouldn't say I mean, I had some difficulties with Spanish early on but I was put into the school, it was a Swiss American school. It taught like German and Spanish and it was but I we would speak English at home and I really didn't feel that distant from my friends. I had some good friends there. Some would speak Spanish, and some would speak English. I never really I mean, every now and then people would kind of joke a little bit about that but it was really not that big of an issue. I can remember times where I think I was treated a bit more favorably than others because maybe they thought my family might have a bit more money, like, you know, I would be given a little bit more lenience in, like, later in life for as a Christian, whether it was getting into clubs, whether it was being treated a bit more favorably in line at at the market or at work and things like that. I don't wanna say But as a child

LJ Cowan: [16:28] as a child, you just fit right in, is what you're saying. I did feel that, yeah. I mean, there was the obvious things people would be like, oh, wow, you're tall. But, you know, I just didn't really think of others as shorter than me. You hit something that I think we need to pause for a second because children are naturally inclusive. Yes. Children don't see diversity as being something, well, they're different from me so I can't play with them. Just kids are naturally accepting, inclusive, and hey, let's just play and have a good time. But something happens as we get older where society or whatever it is pulls us apart and creates those separations, but there's something pure about kids and the way they perceive the world.

Keith Vance: [17:16] Yeah. I mean, Jesus, says that there's a special wisdom given to children and, that he even praised God that it was hidden from those who thought they were wise in this world. So of course there are times that we need to grow up and mature and put our childish ways behind us too. And there's yeah. Everything needs to be divided rightly in right in regards to that.

LJ Cowan: [17:42] There's What were you like? What kind of kid were you? Were you quiet and curious? Were you outgoing? Like, what kind of a kid were you?

Keith Vance: [17:56] I there's two things. One is that I really like computers, so, I I think I was a bit more introspective than many. I remember sometimes people would, like, tell jokes or say all these other things, and it was like a minute later, would be like, oh, I get it. I'd be like talking about something like a like before, and they'd be like, we stopped talking about that a while ago. Got it. Thank But overall, I mean, I spent a lot of time on, you know, math, computer things, and I I did a lot of things with gymnastics. I would people would notice I would like push myself further than most, on, these things where some people would wanna do, you know, five pull ups and I try to do, you know, 50 or something like that or like do the hardest thing like a mana and and everything even if I didn't care about the form. And I think that, that also contributed to where I would try to push myself without knowing God further to find something in ways that were maybe not the most healthy.

LJ Cowan: [19:18] Got it.

Keith Vance: [19:19] And so and I I also ended up with a nickname, which was they would call me Loco because I would do I would try to be, like, funny. I I really like making people laugh. Is is is Loco, is that Hebrew? Is that Hebrew? Spanish. It means it means crazy. And I used to Listen,

LJ Cowan: [19:44] I live in Florida. I know what loco means. I was gonna be I'm

Keith Vance: [19:48] like, well, sometimes you see things in Hebrew, like is cinnamon, and maybe it was Why

LJ Cowan: [19:56] do they call you crazy?

Keith Vance: [19:57] I would do things like just to make people laugh. I was like, I wanna skip class so I had everybody like dump all their book bags on top of me in class and so I I like crawled out like a like a big, caterpillar with all the bags on me until the the the if they were like, where's, you know, where's, where they were asking about me. They're like, they everybody said, we don't know. And then he saw the, like, book bags going out of the class. And I don't know. I mean, I would make jokes that people would be like, where did that come from? You know? That were kind of funny, but they weren't I don't know. That was a while ago, so I'd have to think about it. They were funny to you, but took everybody else a while to get to catch on to it because you're thinking on a different level than everybody else. That might be it. Maybe they were just crazy. I thought they were funny, but, I think others I mean, some people thought that I I could be, like, in a Saturday Night Live at a certain point or something like that. But when I became a Christian, I was like, I need to stop making light of everything. Yeah, man. I mean, I would mock about, just it got to the point where I'd mock about things that were evil and and, even things about God. Why don't they just drink orange juice, you know, when they were thirsty in the desert and didn't have water or something? Yeah.

LJ Cowan: [21:30] In your in your childhood, I'm gonna ask you one more question in regard to this pocket of being a child in Guatemala. What shaped you the most in those early years? What were some of the things that shaped you the most looking back? Was there a teacher? Was there, you know, a certain friend, your dad, mom? Like, what were some of the things that shaped you the most?

Keith Vance: [21:55] I mean, certainly, being exposed to computers at a young age was part of it. Yep. And that brought with it issues of pride, which brought with it a fall. The other things were, pride being what people would call a third culture kid, and so I didn't quite feel later on, especially in my life. So when I in my early childhood, I didn't feel different, but later on I felt like I quite didn't fit in in any culture except with others who were like in the same state. And I think as a Christian, you're also looking for a home that's not on this earth and so that's something that I've I you know, we're searching for a heavenly home. My mom read to me about Jesus when I was 10 and so just knowing he existed because I would I didn't know anything about really before that about Jesus before that. And then my dad told me to never do drugs and I was known as the don't do drugs kid and I even like when people offered me pot I'd be like you know I'd say oh yeah I go to the police and be like that person did it until eventually I recognized that it wasn't quite like I thought it was. I mean it wasn't as black and white as like somebody who did drugs was like this evil conniving person who hadn't you know in the same way with sometimes they could be really smart and they could be really, demonstrate care and, that really we're all fallen. It's not just the drugs doers or this person who's bad, we're all knee jesus.

LJ Cowan: [23:43] So again, I don't think you quite answered my question. Maybe you did.

Keith Vance: [23:47] Mhmm. Those things marked me as, like, who I was. Got it. Okay. I just got the connection. Yeah. The don't do drugs, the kind of, like, I felt I was moral and righteous in my own eyes Got it. That I knew that Jesus was somebody

LJ Cowan: [24:03] and that computers Got it. Shaped me a lot. I got it. I made that connection now. Speaking of computers, you told me that you were, like, programming computer stuff at the age of five. Okay? And I think you probably already answered this question. Did you realize like when did you realize you're wired a little bit differently than everybody else? Because that's not normal for a five year old to be messed with computers and like, to do doing that kind of stuff. Did you did it ever click like, man, I'm wired differently than than my friends who are outside riding, you know, playing or whatever? Or did you ever have that feeling, that thought?

Keith Vance: [24:45] I remember somebody telling me that they asked me that when I was about seven or eight. Like, they they're like, you seem to be kinda bright in these areas, and those areas aren't what matter the most. But I'd be like, no. I I feel like I'm dumber than the rest of kids and and everything like that. So, you know, I mean, I I'd have some trouble catching on to, you know, like, just kind of it's hard to explain but you know others would be you know faster, stronger, it wasn't like I was always the the best overall in everything. I just had some areas where I was a bit more attuned. But I think later on when I I did catch on to that in high school, I I got first place in like math and and physics and the rest of that. I think it did start to get into my head that I was as I went to a college eventually that was the the the motto was atheism, communism, free love, and I I started to have these hints of like secret society elitism that were starting to form in me. And that, you know, I was probably and, you know, I'm really glad that now I I became of the, you could say, the society of of fellow believers in Jesus where I recognize that any knowledge and everything comes from him. But I was wise in my own eyes, brings a bunch of problems. So that eventually did happen and when I speak about my when we're thinking about early childhood it's hard to segment that versus you know like up to 24. Things changed a lot especially after my mom passed away and when I was around 18 or so.

LJ Cowan: [26:50] You told me that, your dad became a Christian when you were, like, 10 years old. You told me that your mom really wouldn't let your dad talk to you about Christianity because she wanted you to decide for yourself. And you described to me this thing inside of you that wanted to know who God was, but didn't quite have a full picture of who God was. And then you went on to tell this life story of how you had your own perceptions of God, which sometimes they're right, sometimes they're they were wrong. But you had the sense that God was pursuing you. So with what you just said about your mom's death at 18, your dad become a Christian. Can we just talk about the concepts or the mindsets and the concepts that you had of God and how they transitioned from when your dad was a Christian until even to where you are now. Let's just can we just talk about that for a while? This is Sure. This will be your different thoughts of God, how they evolved and changed, and how they're you thought they're right and wrong. Let's just let's just talk about that for a while. And at the same time you're talking about God, let's talk about the things that you're going through in your life, like your mother's death, that influenced your thoughts of God.

Keith Vance: [28:45] Yeah. That's a I'd love to do that.

LJ Cowan: [28:54] Take your time, and let's break it down. So 10 years old, I think you said your dad became a Christian.

Keith Vance: [29:00] Yes. This is how I would kind of segment it is when I was growing up, I'd see that there were churches.

LJ Cowan: [29:10] K.

Keith Vance: [29:11] And I knew that there was a god, and you'd have this idea of, like, heaven being this place with, like, clouds and, like, angels with harps or something that you got from cartoons. And I had a friend who, was in the church, and and they would be like, are you, are you evangelical or catholic? I'm like and I had never gone I I had gone maybe with some friends to their maybe a catholic church once or twice because their parents went there and I'm like this is that point, I thought it was not very interesting, and I'd kind of just make jokes at the Sunday school. But he asked me that and I said, what does each one mean? He's like, well, do you believe in in Mary and and everything? I'm like, who's Mary? It's like, what do you know about Jesus? I'm like, why? No. Not really. It's like, oh, you must be an atheist. I'm like, I guess I'm an atheist then. And so then I was like, okay. I mean, people would ask me, I'd be like, I'm an atheist. A little bit that was about when I was nine or eight maybe. And then I went to my my mom when I was about 10. She thankfully didn't read to me about other religions, but they did get me an encyclopedia. I love science, but she read to me my idea of science but amongst what she wanted me to learn was to know a bit about the bible. She got a children's bible and read to me you know the story about like Daniel and the lion's den and David and Goliath. I was like, oh, this is great. This is far better than even like key man and everything. And but then she got to Jesus. And I I was like, this person is very important and how he was the son of God. And somehow I believed he was the son of God and then how people killed him. I was like, why would people do that? And she was like, because people are evil. It's like, no people aren't evil or you know, I mean we do some bad things but it's not like that. And I remember that a little bit later my I I said you know God if you're real you know give me powers give me superpowers to believe in you and then I thought I would shoot x rays from my eyes so that was my idea of what God would do. I didn't understand about like how he died for my sins, I didn't understand the gospel. Then my dad, I don't know if it was before, during, or after maybe I would place it maybe slightly during that time I knew he had a bible in his room that I didn't understand what it was and he started going to these I'm not coming in the name of this group and down there it might be different than other places but there is called the Full Gospel Businessmen's Fellowship where people would come from different churches and give their testimonies about God changing their life. And I remember around when I was 11, I saw my dad change a lot. He would no longer, you know, like, of drink and some other stuff. He wasn't a drunkard ever, but he was like, you know, just kinda more just a a guy who would, you know, say bad words every now and then. He was a nice guy. He was upright. But after that, he was just kinda like more of a rock, I would think, in our family. And I'd noticed that when my mom would get upset, he wouldn't, like, fight back or anything like that. And, when, my mom went to Canada, he'd just support her and even though he was sad. So my my mom I thought she believed in Jesus somehow too and at a certain point, may God bless her, she went really all out for us to like waking up at four in the morning to get us to school because we lived out in a really beautiful countryside in Antigua by Volcanagua and just to get us food, to get us to school, went to all the meetings, she really was sacrificial to us. But all these good works, there was a pain in her heart and this people would say like a hole, something she was trying to fill. And she would smoke. I hated the smell of that smoke and it would give me headaches. I would take a lot of Tylenol and to until finally we didn't have Tylenol, I stopped taking it and I didn't get headaches. It's a side story but I thought it was from her smoking and she would sometimes kind of attack me. And at one point she said, do you believe in magic? I'm like what? Well like Jesus did magic. I'm like Jesus didn't do magic, he did, you know, he's the son of God. I mean he's in control you know and I was like that was just odd. So I had this idea that Jesus was who he said he was but I didn't. She wanted me to know about she didn't permit my dad to take me to church because I needed to learn about everything myself. And sorry if I'm being too lengthy about this. No. Listen listen, LG. This is good, man. You're doing great. Thank you. God bless you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for your patience. So I remember, my dad would start to take me to these breakfasts where you a few times, my mom would allow that, and, you'd hear about people almost all at the same time but there were at least testimonies of like three or four of these you know who would be addicted to drugs and have cancer and they they were in an adulterous relationship and they're, you know, they had million dollar debts and their company had fallen apart and they they had, I don't know, whatever other problems in their lives of disorder. And that they were at the end of their rope and they're like, God I I I've heard that you're real and I give my life to you. And and then God would put everything back together and you never knew what church it was and they'd talk about things like healings and and prophecies and things and you'd see that their life was back together like you know we know them invite them over not perfect and not as big maybe as like billions of dollars that they might have had or millions, but still doing well off and in order. Sometimes maybe more. And so that's that I was like, oh, wow. Well, that's neat. And and I was like, well, that's good for them that, you know, you know, they're bad people. They need Jesus, and Jesus is there for them or something that would sometimes like that would cross my mind. And but I had this inner interest in Jesus and at a certain point, I started going to, like, the kind of college age, late high school age like bible studies college age, early college age in Guatemala. And at this one point they were reading through the book of Ruth. All this time, I could never remember the gospel being really expressed to me, but I hadn't gone to college yet. I was I had quit high school because my mom and this is, I think, important. When I was about 16 we had moved to Canada for the third time for like six months because she was unhappy and just she tried to get a business there and they went they didn't diagnose her being sick at that point with, colon cancer.

LJ Cowan: [36:50] And she got Let let me just fill everybody in. Thank you. Your mom was homesick for Canada. Yes. So when you talked about, Hey, mom moved back to Canada. Mom moved She's trying to move back to Canada. And there's certain things that are keeping her, like government stuff that's keeping her. And now the point that you're getting to now was this is the time you find out she was sick. When She moved back to Canada. They didn't diagnose her in Canada, they didn't diagnose her in Guatemala. But there was this thing in your mom and dad's relationship where she was homesick and she would go back to Canada for a little while and then come back, go and come back. So when he talks about this during the story, that was that dynamic. His mom was homesick.

Keith Vance: [37:36] Yes. Sorry. I was trying to figure out how not to get too off track about how I saw Jesus. You're good. You're doing good. It's but so that people don't get lost. When I was 11, my dad helped my mom to go to Canada, she was homesick and he tried to work up there but every time he would he couldn't find work and he had to go back to Guatemala to support us from there to stay up there. And my mom would try to do businesses to resell Guatemala typical things and it wouldn't work out and she'd have to move back. She did that when I was 13 and we went to school in Canada at that point. I recognized in Canada we never had Gleex and stuff like that in Guatemala the same way I felt as in I saw in Canada where people would kinda mock me and and and treat me or even, I'd say the this I don't want this to sound wrong, but the, like, the fat kid who was my friend all of a sudden would turn against me and then he'd come back and be like, I'm sorry. I just wanna fit in with them. And I'm like, I thought you were friend. You know? He's like

LJ Cowan: [38:45] Hey, listen. You know what we can do is I know this guy's real good with computers. We could probably hack some of these people. Like, we could probably, like

Keith Vance: [38:53] Put the gospel as their, like, screensaver or something like that. Repent. Jesus is coming soon. I'm sorry. We're I'm getting you off track. I'm sorry. But yeah. Mean, hackers for Christ or something. The but no. I I pray I pray that they they do come to know Jesus. And there's, as you said, that everything has its reason. I'm I was no angel myself. I I was the worst in the immorality quiz in college. So but it was just interesting that in this time thanks. This is nice to go over, brother Keith. That, you know, I I had those those things that my mom the I got exposed to the Internet when I was in Canada around the age of 16. This was you know 96. Sadly also pornography and things that when I look back, this is a side note, I think it affected my mental disorder maybe at least as much as as drugs and going into eastern and and kind of strange philosophies did. But all that all that also really affected me. I want to not get too off track about like my view of God through life but I know that that that was something really impactful was I made some friends online and I I formed a business with somebody that I met over IRC. He was in England, Tim Jay, Tim Wharton and we won a competition in North America in '97 and where where you make they're called demos that are real time like use computer game technology to make like music videos and just demonstrate math and formulas and music and as a programmer I think they're interesting. And so we found an investor and all my life I wanted to be a computer game programmer. So I I want to kind of I guess give a friend a vision of where I was at that point in my life around 18 that my mom was in in Canada, I had the internet, made a demo about then won the competition and she had to leave Canada. I left about four months earlier. I had to be with my dad. I used to get with my mom being behind me like you know a pluses and a's all my grades and she would have to be behind me for like two, three hours to get like just a fifteen minute homework thing done. And I could get it done quick but I I I was like I had no self control. I just wanted to be doing my computer stuff and you know maybe outside with a skateboard or like I wasn't good at it but you know just kinda doing things with my friends and I had I even tried to hypnotize myself at one point to try to figure out how can I get myself to actually do the work I'm supposed to do? It's like I I didn't know how to get myself to do it. So that's gonna connect to something later where I self diagnosed as ADHD and put on medications for that. But in '16 I came back down to Guatemala and my mom was like I can't go to the bathroom and she hadn't gone for a few weeks and the doctors kept saying up there there's universal healthcare whether that's good or bad, I'm just this was our experience. They said, no, if you had something serious, you'd be in a lot of pain. She's like, I'm in a lot of pain and they wouldn't do anything. When she got back down to Guatemala because everything had failed and at that point that I was with my dad, I was getting all f's, and and I was like, I just didn't care. Nobody was behind me, and my dad was I mean, he he was a one he's a wonderful father, but just very different from how my mom was. Listen. Your your dad is like most dads.

LJ Cowan: [43:16] They're like, go get your mom for help. If kids need help, go get your mom. I look at my kid's homework, I'm like, I don't say it out loud, but I think it you're never gonna use this. This is a waste of time. Why are you doing this? Like, go get your mom's help. So your dad's a tip your dad's a typical man.

Keith Vance: [43:36] He was, like, really busy. He was trying to make sure that my mom was, like, supported and stuff like that. I mean, we are I I noticed when I got there, my mom wasn't there. I opened the freezer. It was, like, filled with mold and everything. I was like, oh, I mean, you know, this is this is kind of, probably not the best vision of my dad. Again, he really went out of his way for us, but our solution when the, when the toilet, kinda overflowed and we got some mold in this house was to move homes. I mean, it was just different. So and he he was just he's really been there for me after my mom passed away. I mean, he's he's been through the worst when he when he saw me at my worst. So but I just really value like what how how important mothers are and and having a family is. And I'm really grateful that when I see all these people who have gone through much more difficult situations than I have, our family was far from perfect, but I I had a lot of blessing. Good. And so but I I was just my mom got down to Guatemala, they're like, why didn't they diagnose you? You know, they they they saw that she was like at stage four can cancer and they gave her six months to live, put a colostomy bag on and said this is so incredibly serious. I don't know how they could ever not, you know, do not do that. How old was your mom at this point? She was about 43. Wow. And and she had six months to live and at this point she's like, you know, I'm gonna start going to church. And she started to go with my dad here and she started to get better. And she went like a year and a half at this point of going to church and she had seen some really interesting things which is kinda interesting like she had she had to be wheeled into the hospital I remember when I was younger and my my dad was a really new believer and because she she was sure she had appendicitis she was a nurse and the doctor is like okay we're gonna operate we you know it's just exactly that pain she was on the gurney to go there and my dad was like Lord I know that you're, you're able to do things, please if you can please heal my wife and then you know she had his hand on her and she's like the pain went away. And they waited for like an hour and and they're like, well, if there's no pain, there's no operation. Mhmm. The pain didn't come back. And there was things like that, that happened, but she started going to church and she was almost totally better, but she didn't commit her life to Christ. And I at this point had decided to quit high school like, what would have been maybe not finishing twelfth grade. The grades are a bit different in Guatemala. And, I want I was like, you know, high school's like, you know, I'm really not learning anything here. And my high school is really nice. Like, you know, they they let me later on to actually not go to all the classes I didn't like and to to just take like math and whatnot. And that I it wasn't first place in math, but I got like first in in for high school and like physics. It was like six in math, first in computers, and all these other things and, I was like, you know I just wanna and my parents were like, okay you can take a different route and, I was just trying to form a company and I did this demo while my mom was sick. And in that in that I wrote about like my mom who was getting better from cancer. And about a year and a half into that, I was starting to form a company with this person from that demo that we had got in first place and and he found an Indian investor and I had never even spoken to him over the phone. He was like 18, I was 17 at the time. And we were getting ready to fly over there and at that point my mom decided to get an idol from Guatemala that was I don't even wanna mention its name but they like sacrificed chickens to it and everything and she like started to get into to go to like Deepak Chopra and all the rest And she started to get very sick all of a sudden. And she flew up to her brother in in Texas, and he was an anesthesiologist there, and he was really kind and put her up and helped with all the medical expenses. And I mean just the family, I'm I'm really grateful for that side of the family. My my grandfather like he he came from like Yugoslavia as the poorest of the poor there and somehow made it into like to be a very respected medical doctor and and put seven kids there and this was my through through like college and they're they all are did pretty well and but as far as I known, I don't know if any of them are currently seeking Jesus on that side of the family and there was this disunity but my my my uncle was my mother's twin, obviously not identical and I was just playing like the most unholy video games this whole time and I went to see my mom and all of a sudden she was like just asking to die and she was in so much pain and she was like not breathing and I had to be at her side and being like you know like mom breathe you know like a minute would pass and I'd shake her and I'd be like dad mom something's really bad. And my dad came up to The States to be with her and she woke up kind of from the semi coma for for like a week or so was able to be with my brother for his birthday and and said, during that time, I I accept your your God Roger and then she passed away. And my dad had a vision after that about how she said thank you and she went up to like heaven or something, he could explain it better. I mean, my dad seen some amazing things like speaking and he spoke in Arabic without knowing the language in tongues and somebody else who knew it is like, do you know what you said? And it's like, no. It's like, you you're saying I love you more than my very eyes and like praising God. And so that all those things were a witness to me and so I I believe him when he said these things because he he's led a very what I think is upright life, maybe I have some favoritism. He and so I I was at this point very, you know, even though I thought a lot about Jesus overall, I don't know what happened when my dad mentioned that she said that during the funeral and I had a piece of her hair thinking science might bring her back I was like, how can you bring your religion into this at a time like this? And it just shows that you know I was getting more into porn and all these other things that and like into my own self righteousness and thinking I was wise in my own eyes and I was depressed. And so at the same time after my mom passed away that's when I turned, I had a friend who would he never forced me to do drugs and I was always the don't do drugs guy but he I noticed was really smart and he'd get girlfriends and he was really kind and he was always really cool and everybody seemed to like him and and I was like, well, maybe if I do drugs, I'll I'll also get a girlfriend because I was like Are you in college at this time? I was I actually had quit high school and around 17, right before 18 no 17 and I was in nothing until I didn't go to college until about four or five years later when I had a girlfriend who was in the she told me, you know, there's this college I know, Reed College, that I think will fit you really well and you So should

LJ Cowan: [52:15] what I wanna do is I think this is a good point to stop and digest this. I got a I got a picture of your concept of God is right now at this point. Yes. And the fact that when your mom died, you got her hair thinking, how can I bring mom back with science? Yes. And your and it offended you that your dad brought up Jesus after your mom died. Like, how can you talk about that in a moment like this?

Keith Vance: [52:47] Is that true? My last words to my mom, as she was suffering were, why don't you just die? And she stopped breathing at that moment. My uncle came in. And I was playing those video games but something about after after she died my dad brought me to more of those breakfast and I started going to those like college groups about Jesus and even my girlfriend was like, yeah, you should go to those groups. And there's something in me yearning for that, yearning for the truth. In finding drugs I was like, that that happened after my mom passed away. I was like, I recognized I was very depressed and that something was missing. So what I wanna do is I want to

LJ Cowan: [53:38] we're gonna take a break. I gotta go to the bathroom and I want this your story is so complex and I don't want to miss anything. So I want to take a break, want to regroup, and I want to talk the next phase, whether that's the drug abuse and we can talk about that phase, but I want to just get with you off camera. Sure. Talk about the next phase because there's so many layers here. You're doing a great job, and I wanna make sure we do justice to your story because there's someone who needs to hear this. And this isn't just like a nice clean story. There's a bunch of moving dynamic parts here. Alright. So let's let me take a break. Let's regroup, and we'll hit it again. You're doing great, brother. Thank you. Thank you, brother Keith. God bless you. Amen. Jesus' name. This part of the podcast is brought to you by Frequence. The product is Rise. These are my nootropics. Derived from a blend of seven different mushrooms. I take this for mental clarity, cognitive health, and it's also a natural pre workout. Find the link in the bio. Now let's get back to the show. Hi, brother. We're back from the break. We're going to talk about each transition in your life and your concepts and thoughts of God during each one of those transitions. That's why I wanted to stop because you're getting ready to do, we talked about childhood, building up through school, your mom died. Now you're in a point in your life where you're exposed to drugs and you're getting into the college area. So let's talk about that transition in life and then weave in your thoughts of God at this time during this next phase. Let's just deconstruct this thing, okay? So this next segment of your life, what was it like for you? And what did you think of about God?

Keith Vance: [55:30] Alright. So we had, spoken about my my mom just passing away and, how she was, a big help to my self control, an external part of that. Now my my dad had to kind of function in that role but I was already 18 at this point And I we formed this company over in England. I had just gotten drunk for the first time maybe a month before that. I was 18 and flew to England. Met this my coworker the the co owner of the company there but I didn't have my visa quite in order and I didn't know how to explain it that when I was entering I I mentioned I was coming in as a worker instead of there was a special way it needed to be said to to get my visa when I was over there for working. And I was denied entry and this was New Year's of nineteen ninety eight and I was that was the first time I was exposed. They did allow me into England for two weeks to just kind of, I don't know, they had pity on me or something, but sometimes I feel like the Lord's show me a little bit of extra care then. And I I got to stay there for two weeks at least to see the the office house that was rented for us. Got to go to a pub and I had just drank a lot. They ordered Indian curry for the first time and we'd watched a whole bunch of British sitcoms and talked a lot about code, and I think I was drunk the whole two weeks. And then we you got to choose where you were, I'd say, deported to and the investor said why don't you go to Benidorm, Spain and because they have cheap houses now, it's like winter or like housing and so we worked from Benidorm, Spain. I was pretty much we went to the pub every day there for like two and a half months and three months and they didn't work out the visa when I was there. And then I came back to Guatemala and there was a girl I liked from Austria and I noticed that she would smoke pot, there was another girl I also liked and they'd smoke pot and I was like you know I was always a don't do drugs guy but you know my friend's not so bad and this person's not so bad. I started smoking pot, kind of went out with her and, I flew back to The States because I thought I was gonna get my my visa. This is a longer story I mean I was in New York and for a while I was in North Carolina and I ended up in I I mean I would do I I would just start to make cruder and cruder jokes and everything. I I made some friends over there in New York and we'd like drive up and down the highway or something like that and they're like, what? Wouldn't it be really funny if you like dressed up like a girl and just we went by all these Latino people and and said there's like this big fat like girl back there or something and then, you know, they'd run out on the window and be like, you know, look as ugly as I could and they'd run away or something and it was kind of it's just these eventually, ended up in California, and I was like, well, you know, I really like electronic instruments and music. And

LJ Cowan: [59:18] and I was at a rave for the first time there, and all night long, I danced with them, and at the end of that, they were like Before you get to the rave, and I'm I'm just curious, and I don't wanna Sure. I don't wanna throw off your train of thought, but I am curious. England, Spain, North Carolina, New York, California, how are you funding all this?

Keith Vance: [59:40] Through the company in England. They were I was working on trying to make a computer game. Still working?

LJ Cowan: [59:46] Yes. Okay. Okay. That's just for my own clarity. Got it. No. That's good.

Keith Vance: [59:50] They we were they were funding me to work on a computer a three d game engine, and so I did that. And they were funding me, like, because it was cheaper to fly from The States, and it was just supposed to be two more weeks, and my life was just about to start in two more weeks. Understood. And I remember during this time I started to have my first existential crises like where I'd wake up in middle of the night and I'd be like, what is this all about? You know, why am I here? And I noticed like like there was I couldn't even get myself to do the programming I so loved and all these other things. I I was like, what? It was it was like I could, but it was becoming a big struggle. I got to I was God was not really a part of my life at this point other than maybe my dad took me to one of these breakfasts. But I I I remember around the age of 19, was there. I I all night long, I'd partied and and everything. And and in the morning, there was people I was dancing with and they're like, hey. So what are you on? I'm like, what do you mean? What am I on? They're like, what kind of tablet? I'm like, then they're they're like you're not even on anything? How could you rave all night and not be on anything? And I had been interested in taking e for or m c MDMA for a while and then they offered it and then took that and danced and for the first time I had felt like not unhappy or something and as long as I could remember I remember even as a kid I like wonder you know just kind of thinking about thinking and thinking about my mind and probably a lot of people might have that but I was just kind of like what is this about? And all of a sudden I started to have these thoughts that maybe there was something that was lacking and other people would say like, okay, I mean they felt they were high on that but they didn't seem it was like as profound to them as it was to me. And and they started to tell me about ADHD and how like and I noticed, wow, I can't focus or anything maybe I'm ADHD. When I was in California, I eventually had to leave the company in England, this was a year and a half after I had tried to move in there. And I I got into DanceSafe where we would try to test people's drugs. I got some turntables. I got I started to work as a DJ in like Berkeley a little bit. And things started to get really strange where my friends, I mean, some really smart ones, but they would also sometimes take drugs. They were like, you know, maybe you should lay off that because you seem to this also seems to not just affect you like more in the to feel better but also your lows seem really low like you need to stop. I was like no this is I'm like I I just can't be like normal like I need something and I started to learn about antidepressants and I went to my psychiatrist in Guatemala who had tried to treat me when I was also seven or eight that this was an early time that I don't know if it's related but my parents had decided to go to like one of those, kind of indigenous, spiritists down there and I remembered I started to get these fears of like things being poisonous and maybe it was related to me having gasoline from like a lighter and my mom getting all nervous, I don't know but I was taken to him and he had he then became my psychiatrist later. I was there just maybe for six months. I don't know how long as a child. But he said, you know, you should probably not take these drugs in the future because I think you're gonna be more sensitive to them. You might go like it might have deeper consequences for you. So I got on antidepressants and I I thought that, okay, these give me the the capacity to kind of be like on

LJ Cowan: [1:04:08] alcohol. I need some clarity again. Yes. At this point in time, you're old, 19, 20? I am 20. You're 10 years old. You're in California.

Keith Vance: [1:04:19] And I'm back in Guatemala at this point because everything in my life went kind of haywire. I brought my turntables down to Guatemala. Understood. You were in California I was. DJ thing.

LJ Cowan: [1:04:30] Yes. Everybody's saying, hey, man. You need to tone it down a little bit. You're like, why? So you go back to Guatemala because you're feeling like your life is

Keith Vance: [1:04:37] Out of control. Getting chaotic. Okay. Yeah. Like, I mean, I would be people would be in these big e puddles and, like, kinda telling me about how they were, like, you know, the I don't know who it was, but the the kind of lead provider of who knows what all around California. And the and I'm so glad God took me out of there, but my dad here, he rescued me, brought me down, helped me with the turntables, and I started to work. I'm sorry. I did not mention that crucial step. It's my job. My job is to ask questions that don't make sense. So Yeah. We're it's like, let's no. Thank you. So I started the I understand first with some other people electronic music club down in Guatemala called Il Faro in 2000. And I started also to go to the gym there and the like I was like, oh, wow. Working out helps too. And I was thinking I was just enjoying how like, even antidepressants help me to almost be like on alcohol where you feel a little bit more free to to just kinda be unhinged or something like that. And I'm like, I love just being unhinged.

LJ Cowan: [1:05:52] What antidepressants were you on? Oh, I I tried

Keith Vance: [1:05:57] Zoloft, think, and another one, like Effexor, and they put me for the first time on Ritalin and Adderall too. They were prescribed to you? Through my doctor. K. Yes. And I noticed that on Ritalin and stuff, it was like all of a sudden I could you could say focus on things, but that became a problem later because it's like I could focus on things but they weren't necessarily what I was supposed to focus on. K. So I I I'm not I I guess to kinda stick to the story at this point is when I started to go to those like early college age, like, meetings for some reason in church. And and in that club, I ran into an old friend from from Guatemala. He was going to a school there. He was a bit younger than me. And and there was a girl there who was with him. She became my first, what I would call, like, we had a serious relationship for, like, six months girlfriend, kind of I really cared about her a lot. And she was the one who told me I should go to Reed College. And I remember I mean, I'm introduced her to things I shouldn't have, did a lot of things I you know, you shouldn't do as a friend or boyfriend or anything like I mean, wait till marriage, a lot of other things. But I yeah. She I I'm really sad. I introduced her and sorry if you ever see this Hannah and like to to drugs and all the rest and she was really caring to to me and she went off to college and actually ended up with somebody who had bipolar illness too and we've kind of lost touch. But I she went to the Dominican Republic, was in Guatemala, I had done all this work on computer games and I was like how do I visit her in The Dominican Republic before she went to college and I had a friend who was in a travel agency and they needed some work on a computer program and I decided to make a website for them that they exchanged for a ticket over there. And then I was like, oh wow, this was, you know, I'm I'm okay at this. And I passed by a web design house and noticed I asked if they could do, you know, provide work there. And and so they're like, And I founded the computer programming part there and saw Lucian Web and became like the CIO there and for a year. And I was going to church during these times and I remember during the book of Ruth and I was still I I before I visited my girlfriend, it was the first time that the leader of the group said that her daughter had cancer and I said, can I pray for your daughter? And she said, okay. And I remember just a simple prayer, well, oh lord, can you make her well? And I felt something much different than drugs but it was like a spiritual reality that was far beyond anything that we physically saw opened up. And I told my girlfriend that and she was she was really happy for me, but I was like there's something there. There is there's definitely something there. And but in all this time I can't remember somebody having clearly told me the gospel. And Why do you think you why

LJ Cowan: [1:09:36] do you think you asked to pray for that person? Do you think that that was your dad influence praying for your mom? Like, what why would you have that thought? Like

Keith Vance: [1:09:45] I would say, ultimately, Jesus put those good motivations. And the the really nice thing is not me. I'm seeing others prayed too, but, you know, that the the her daughter was actually cured of cancer, So that was really nice. I found out later of Carrie Fonsella's daughter. But, I mean, obviously, my and hearing all those testimonies about my dad and that God would do miracles and knowing like people testifying to his reality. And faith comes from God anyway, so I believe that he just had me know that. I give him all the glory. But and so that that happened and I had signed up for this college and I they accept me in. I tried for many others but my my essays were they're like, what what do you think is the, you know, is good about life? I'm like, well, I or it was something about what where do you find meaning in life or or who would you like to meet or, you know, those questions. And in one of them, it's like, well, what I wanna be when I I grew up is a hedonist. And I just want to be able to figure out like how to find the right drugs and everything to actually feel okay and everything. So Stanford didn't let me in and others. And I'm I do not blame them. But you know I was all like because I was like, well there's prime meaning behind this and I'm really glad to know about John Piper's meaning about like his him finding meaning in like being a Christian hedonist that God is most glorified when you are most satisfied in him. So that that kinda rings a bell to me, but I was searching for something, I don't know if like the epicureanism or whatever, but it was, you know, to me it was profound and it was wicked at the what I was doing. But I didn't understand about sin. I I had at this point, I got Reed College. Bless their hearts. They accepted a person like me. And they I loved my friends there. For the first time, I was amongst a whole bunch of, like, really quirky, kind of fascinating, really needy complex people. You told me about

LJ Cowan: [1:12:12] some of the people that you hung out with, and you told me about some of their accomplishments. And it's just amazing that I'm sitting in the same room with somebody that knows people who've done some amazing things. Like, it was you're with some people who've done some stuff, like your friends.

Keith Vance: [1:12:32] I feel that way about you, brother. I mean, seeing, like, how you've built up, you know, what it seems like a very well built I mean, this, establishment with, in this world that we're in, you know, I've I've tried and, I'm like, this is this is a difficult world to be able to actually make something happen. So I mean, here I am just making a whole bunch of mistakes and there's a lot of people in this college. The the the the college motto was atheism, communism, and free love. But there was a group of Christians in this college, maybe about twelve Twelve. In, like, a 2,000 person college, and they were called OFCS, oh, for Christ's sake. And and I loved going to their meetings, and I really loved the people there. And I'm I'm seeing this.

LJ Cowan: [1:13:34] I'm seeing a struggle. I'm seeing a pull. And we're gonna get there. Like, we're gonna take a break after a little while, but I'm seeing this pull. Where you're giving yourself over to things that are not good for you. Going to a college that's the creed is not a good creed, but there's a group of Christians there that you're drawn to. I'm seeing this this tug over you, and I would say this tug over your soul. It's an amazing story, brother. I don't want to jump ahead, but I just listened to you talk through it so clearly. Here you are, you're giving yourself over to this, and you're gonna talk about this reprobateness, but a tug on your heart that there's a person who's sick with cancer and hey, can I pray for them? There's this dynamic. And again, that's why I wanna weed in what was your concept of God during each phase this time because God is trying to reveal himself to you, but he's blurry right now. You don't you're you got a couple of pieces together, but you don't have the full concept yet, and we're gonna get there. This is this is a good story, man. Again, I just wanted to thank you, and you're doing such a good job. This is it's complex, but you're doing a great job.

Keith Vance: [1:15:02] Yeah. Thank you for your your kind words to encourage me. I mean, I know it could probably be done much better, but it feels an encouragement to have this that that and yeah I mean there was definitely that reprobateness in me. I on one hand you know I know what Satan was he was doing these things I had taken some hallucinogens one night and I was like oh wow I can dance better than I've ever danced and and it's like I could see like blood coming out of my hands and like on my shadow I had like a crown of thorns on my head or something I'm like and and then I was like, what does this mean? How does this connect to things? And there's some some kinda, like, drug reality there. And I was, like, trying to merge that drug reality, and I I people talked to me before about Eastern religions and Taoism. I'm like, wow. That's kinda creepy. And then in college, I all of a sudden, I became basically a Taoist and was starting to pull people into Taoism. It's like, you know, saying all these things that that were just like about nonaction and they're they're just like totally opposite of the gospel, but they'll they're they'll say some things that you can try to merge with the gospel like Jesus is the way and Taoism says the way. And it's like but they're they're not the same thing. They're just using the same word. And that's gonna I think matter later. But at the same time as I was doing that, I was going to these Christian meetings, and they knew I wasn't a Christian, but they loved me coming. They showed me a lot of love. And there was one person there, and he wrote the the book Blue Like Jazz. And as he was writing that, it's all about the the school there. It's very well written, think. Donald Miller. He was auditing. And he he was a nice guy but you know he's like, oh, you know, I'm writing this book and it has kind of you guys. I'm like, oh, whatever, Don. You know, didn't know it was gonna be like a New York Times bestseller and everything that was gonna come from that and it's just kinda humbling. You don't know what's gonna happen with people that you just kinda self esteem. That's happened more than once in my life. As a quick aside with that, there was even some person because I was all out there being vocal about Jesus and there was one humble couple and I'm like, oh, they don't seem to shine very much and maybe they're just kinda like not really so Christian. Then one day there was a a guy there who was kinda like biting himself and all at the church. I'm like, oh, who is this? And and then they came and they're like, oh, this is Timmy, our adopted son. And I was like, I recognize at that moment that Christians might be doing some amazing things behind the scenes that you don't know about and we just really should be careful on how we judge people. But, you know, I mean, that was just like way behind where I was with sacrifice. Just being showy isn't sacrifice. It's So there's so I was in college at this point and at a certain moment, there was one friend there, Ivan, and he he kinda became a good friend of mine. Like, I would say these crazy things and he just kinda listen and he talk a bit about Jesus. And one time he went, you know, he ended up becoming a missionary in Thailand and everything, but during this time I was like, he I had a really bad trip at one point. And my friends were like, hey. Calm down. Calm down. I'm like, I don't know what to do. I need somebody who knows god. I'm like, take me to my friend Ivan. And he stayed up all night from, like, eleven to to the break of the sun. And just helping me through, like, all my crazy things where I saw, like, white light separating into components and, like, just I couldn't handle what was going on. And he was speaking about Jesus. I was asking him all kinds of questions, like inappropriate ones. I was like, you know, you seem so humble and everything. Why aren't you, like, proclaiming God boldly? I was like, are you gay or something? And he had he didn't have a girlfriend. He's like, no, I'm not gay. And he's like, you know, talked about meanness, but in in regards to proclaiming boldly, you know, that is the question. Why am I not doing that? And he was like, maybe I could improve there. So he was

LJ Cowan: [1:19:36] So he was treating you with dignity? Yeah. You were not treating him with dignity, but he was treating you with dignity. That's interesting.

Keith Vance: [1:19:47] That's interesting. And I didn't even mean it as, like because in college, like, gay wasn't necessarily a slander as, you know I mean, just there, I mean, I I people would consider it a party to dress up as a woman and and do a drag show, and everybody would get involved in that. And it it was like, the more perverse you could be, the more celebrated you were. Got it. So to me, it wasn't a lack of dignity even though it was a lack of dignity because, I mean, it's the same as if, you know, are you like an adulterer? Are you whatever? We're all sinners. What I'm talking here, you are tripping on mushrooms. I am tripping on And he's treating you With as a

LJ Cowan: [1:20:36] a creation of God. He's treating you with dignity. He's humanizing you. Yes. When you are humanizing yourself, he's humanizing you. Just interesting. And and again, I'm just I didn't mean to mess up your story.

Keith Vance: [1:20:49] And he I mean, this is it's interesting. He never came at me like, oh, you know, you really should get off those drugs or something like that. He was just kinda like, let me help you. You know? And I'm we're all different parts of the body, but that was that was a very impacting moment. And during that night, I was like, I'm gonna be a Christian. I decided I was gonna do it. I I still didn't know the gospel, but I thought what it meant to be a Christian was to love everybody. And my idea of loving everybody was kinda giving them what they wanted and, you know, not doing things that were offensive to them. And I remember late that night and I was, the the next day I I finally got some sleep, I was a little bit frazzled but I said, okay god. And I remember the same when I saw him when I was like 10 when I first heard about Jesus it's like I could feel like this white light from up there and I was looking down at me when I was like 10 or so when my mom read the Bible and it was just happy and it was just so much peace. And it was like the same person was up there this time and I was like Lord, I'm gonna be a Christian. I love everybody. And instead, I remember that light being there, and there was love for me, but there was this anger or wrath. It was it was like the anger of God against me, and I couldn't stop shaking for two days. I take warm showers. I was like I was really really shaken and and I was like I need to make it to church, need to do something, my friends were like, I don't like Christians but maybe the Quakers are okay and I had this this this verse in my mind about like Peter why did you doubt you know when he was crossing the trying to walk on water I think it was and glad I didn't end up with the the Quakers but just it's interesting how God used the situation when I was there that you in a meeting, everybody would sit down, not all Quakers are in any group are all the same, but they would sit down and wait till the Holy Spirit would move them to say a verse. And near the end of the hour, they said, just the verse that I had in my mind for the past two days for some reason. And then they said one other verse after at the very end. And I was like, oh wow that's that's fascinating and somehow during this time my mind was like coming unwound. They started they put me a little bit they didn't diagnose me but one of the campus psychiatrist was like why don't you take this kinda like also antipsychotic for a little bit, I did for a little bit and I hated how it made me feel. Geodon maybe it was or something and and I I I quickly like got off of it and I, had a another girlfriend at this point and then, I just remembered feeling like it was I mean, I did the the most awful things. Was like in in Mexico and and, just like, you know, she like pulled me into the room with her her like parents in the other room into like the bathroom and her grandmother it's like slamming on the door and like you know just please just just be patient and everything and to have it was it was and and then finally I was like I just don't find meaning with her and I was like why and what's going on and she's like you know just you seem kind of unstable and I have to break this off I'm like I know and then I found my last basically girlfriend of this point and she used to go to church. I'm just telling the story like this not as a prescription but a description of things that happened to me and she would mention Jesus and I I got off all the Geodon but I was on like antidepressants and I was taking other things and I would be able to speak about like truth and evil and good and like flip them around and people would esteem me as somebody who is like supposedly wise because I could do these things with words at least in my own eyes I was, they probably thought I was crazy, who knows whatever. But people tended to think they would tell me afterwards like I was you know kind of one of the people who would get along with everybody everybody seemed to like me and I was having all these problems of self control and I was getting farther and farther behind in my classes and but I did manage to finish sophomore year and this girlfriend she would encourage me to go to like spiritual retreats and Ivan had graduated I think by this point, the the other OFCS people were a bit more like you know conservative Christians and kinda like, hey, you know, that's really not good for you. And I'd kinda scoff at them saying that, but I still like hanging out with them until one night one day, I I had lunch with somebody and I mean, I I

LJ Cowan: [1:26:03] Can I Go ahead? I just have to say something. I I hate pausing because you're doing such a good job, but hearing you talk about you scoffing at people, hearing you talk about you making jokes about things, I only know this guy sitting here. I can't I can't picture that. I can't picture that, which we're not there yet. It's just a testament to the change in your life. I can't picture you. You're you're so humble and your your humility and your Christ likeness Christ likeness isn't a testament to LJ. It's a testament to Christ's work in you. And again, I'm getting ahead of myself. I'm just hearing you say these things, I can't picture it, LJ. I can't picture it. Well, praise Again, the I apologize for stopping your story, I just had to make the interjection. I can't picture that. All this stuff that you're describing, this guy sitting across here that's the most humble person I know that wants me to be more like Christ, I just can't I can't see it. So

Keith Vance: [1:27:09] there's a few things. One is I I know how much I lack, and I know also that he who is forgiven much loves much so if anything where I was brought in has made me really know the depravity and the evil that you can get to when you rely on yourself and that we need to cleave to Christ. And I I just there's that's very humble of you to say. I mean, I see a lot of just Christ nice Christ likeness and maturity and you, brother. And I I mean, I I know I've got, you know, a lot a lot still to work out. But Jesus is good, and we know he's the solution just like in Sunday school when you're a child, it's like, well, whatever the problem is, you know, we we know he we just follow him and he'll he'll help us to to put everything in in where it's gotta be. God has been so patient with me brother. Mhmm. And this has been also twenty years. I remember Michael W. Smith telling his testimony. It's like he's a Christian singer and I mean nobody's perfect but you know on one hand you hear him coming out of like these deep addictions and everything and other brothers in church and you won't be able to tell from them nowadays. And yeah, I mean the things that that happened afterwards she she would encourage me to to do that. There's some there was one girl who was just absolutely brilliant like I I went into college writing my essays as like business bullet points like when I was in had started that business in Guatemala. I was like, oh, wow. I can make these proposals And I I'm terrible at making money now, but I mean, you know, sold like, I have million dollar proposals and everything. I'm like, this must be how you write college papers. And they came here, they're like, you shouldn't be here. And then I I met her and then we we wrote a college paper together like doing a a kind of like a dialectic between like Plato and what the afterlife was and and our our teacher who like scoffed at me, he's like this is really great. I wanna like frame this on the wall and show it to others. And she she like learned how to program like out of the blue and then at a certain point, I don't know why I was like, you know, I just I guess she's not as attractive to me now and I went on to somebody else and we had like such a great connection and you know later on I just really regretted that because you know she was a little I don't know. We were all a little kinda crazy over there, but I just treated people like garbage and just scoffed at people. I like hung one one of my friend who is a Christian's like dolls that was in a praying position by like a noose on the top here and we just like mock at his Christianity at times. And at the same time I do that and I was like there's no such thing as good and evil. And and then I got I got to my friend who's a Christian, Nana Ivan, and he was the leader of the the kind of the organization at that point. And I told him about, you know, I just think good and evil is relative and I was speaking a little bit. And then all of a sudden he said, you know, I disagree with you. And all of a sudden I recognized I had no real foundation to back up what I was saying to him. And that one statement, I disagree with you, rocked my world more than anything else that I can think of. And my life even more than like I already had all these problems from drugs and everything but at that point I recognized I had no foundation. I stopped being able to do my homework, my ex girlfriend who had encouraged me, she went off to another college, god bless her heart, she did visit me in Guatemala. But she I mean, I really cared a lot about her, and I had done, you know, just even kinda like wicked prayers and doing things we were doing that were like ungodly. And I don't know but when she left I couldn't do my homework and that foundation had gone and for like then I had this struggle with somebody that said that you know what he wanted most was just to be able to control people like anything he wanted that's what people would do and it struck me as like even though I would do the same kind of things as jokes and whatnot but I recognized at that moment how evil those words were. He probably meant it as a joke too, but I mean, I couldn't shake his I was like, I I have to stay away from you for a while. I had slept like two hours for a night at most for like four weeks. And and he's like shake my hand, shake my hand, and then he yelled at me, he was my housemate at that point and then everything collapsed and and I it was like my house blew down and, you know, it was great was its fall. And I this was in my junior year, and, all the college professors were like, we just can't put you let give you any more leeway with your homework. And and I remember telling my dad at that point, okay. I need to go to Guatemala and become a Christian, and and and he brought me back down to Guatemala again from the school in Oregon and to leave and eventually I got put into an asylum and for about nine days and I just remember like thinking that I saw like Bruce Almighty or something I'm like well you know I was like you know these thoughts about where is God, what are my feelings, I had these big feelings I didn't know what to do with, I thought it was I was feeling them because I was connected to all the Arabs who were like, upset about Saddam Hussein dying, and there was like no ability to reason in me. There's like, I I I was trying to do these math problems and I had done all these things before and I was trying to finish a program for somebody and I felt like all the math wasn't mathing. It was like I and I thought I was like I had done programs and they were working and all of a sudden they weren't and it's like I'd write down algorithms and and and they wouldn't work and and I eventually got to the point not here but later. It was just so humbling but in there in there I recognized there was somebody who was like watch if there's any guards coming. I'm like what? Okay. And he's like, you're a good guy. And I recognized like, people tell you you're good

LJ Cowan: [1:34:12] not for doing what's good, but for just like giving them whatever they want. And it's like He was trying to escape, so he's He trying to escaped later that night. And So he's telling you you're a good guy, but you're doing a bad thing. And did you remember you remember

Keith Vance: [1:34:27] people say you're good, but not for good reasons that you just stuck with you? That's that's there are certain things that are stuck with me where people what they call love is not love. All that I mean, you know, it might just be like flattery. It might be, you know, the things we see in the street of of of pure lust and licentiousness. I mean, now we we aren't under the commandments, but they said in Acts, do not commit sexual immorality as like one of the the four things that there had to do with food basically. And just because people will confuse love for so many things. And the bible says that the the love of God is to follow his commands which are that we love one another and there is that love from the heart that is there that measures things. But Jesus shows us what love is like. The greatest love is to die for your friends and not just to to be the kind of person that they speak well of Right. And that you win the world through. So I yeah. I mean, I got out of there and my psychiatrist, again, the one earlier, he said, wow. I was like, do you think I can get better from this? He said, you are a nine out of 10 worst I've ever seen and everything. But you know what? I think I think you can get better. I don't know how anybody could say that because I'm and he gave me my diagnosis of schizoaffective bipolar disorder and I mean you see that that's not something people get better of. They have to be on medication the rest of their life. But he gave me a glimmer of hope. He wasn't a very the same kind of Christian as I'd say like, you know, someone was like every Sunday goes. I don't know his full posture but, I think he he trusted Jesus Hold on. In some way. Michael, how deep are we right now?

LJ Cowan: [1:36:20] 45. So it's power 45. K. I think this is another transition point. Okay. Hit the pause button, let's have a conversation, and let's figure out how to navigate this next this next segment together. Okay. I like how we're doing this. I don't want to mess it up. I think I think this is a good this is a good segment to make a transition. This part of the podcast is brought to you by Freqence. The product is source. These are my trace minerals. It's no big secret that the American diet isn't what it used to be. Our food is not nutrient dense. This helps close the gap for me. Find the link in the bio and let's get back to the show. Alright, brother. We're back. Alright. Your psychiatrist diagnosed you with being nine out of 10, I'd be in the worst case he's seen, but he thinks that she can he can get you some help. You spent nine days there. This is the I think the second time you've been in a psych ward that I

Keith Vance: [1:37:26] remember in this story. Is this true? Is this your second one? This would be the first time in a psych ward, but I did mention how I'd been with a psychiatrist before. Got it. Okay.

LJ Cowan: [1:37:35] All right. So you and I talked, we're gonna navigate this thing. And again, the reason why we go off camera and have conversations is because this is so important and we'll make sure we get it right. Okay? I'll make sure we get it right. We're dependent on God's grace to tell your story, and we need to get there. You know, hear testimonies of sometimes when people find Christ, it was in a moment. You know, it just everything clicked, was in a moment. This is not one of those stories. This is a story of it's almost like God's trying to reveal himself to you and you're your you are your own worst enemy, sounds like. Not every not every Grace story is a, oh, yeah, it makes sense and just I I I came to the cross, I repented and this is starting from when you're a boy, weaving this thing through. But how God is pursuing you, man. He is pursuing you. And there's forces against that pursuit and mainly being, sounds like right now, your own self. Alright, brother. Let's pick it up.

Keith Vance: [1:38:53] Yeah. Thanks. There's a song, I think, by Michael W. Smith that says that it's about save me from myself. And that was, especially later, what I thought my biggest enemy was myself. And it says in Timothy that in the end times, the first thing it says is people will be lovers of themselves. And I had a lot of pride, still have a whole lot of pride and and that comes before a fall. So I I was righteous in my own eyes, I thought I was a good person and there was even a warning before this like people say right before I went to the hospital they're like you have to give yourself to Jesus now or something really bad's gonna happen. I'm like oh you know who are you? You know it was because the person was somewhat kinda poor and I knew he had done some bad stuff in the past and he had repented. He was at the group and I was like, you know, I'm I thought I was some kind of brilliant like anthropologist or something because I had done all the computer stuff. I studied anthropology and was trying to figure out how to map people to numbers or something like that and and and systems and But I was I think in the midst of that seeking for the truth, like, what is the meaning behind it all? God had put that in me to some extent and

LJ Cowan: [1:40:15] Let me make one more point. God's pursuing you. I can see it. Yes. You are. I can see that too. You are pursuing God, but there's something in between you two and we're gonna get there. There's something in between you two that is trying to keep you from seeing Him. We're gonna get there. But this is such a, like I said, I wanna make sure we get this right. There's so many moving parts. There's God, there's you, and then there's a dark force.

Keith Vance: [1:40:43] So let's go ahead and pick up your story. Thank you, brother. Yeah. I'm I'm hoping that I can relay this in a way that is easy to to make sense of and and the people can find practical applications in in their pursuit of the Lord. I I so yeah for the next two, so I got out of the hospital I had committed myself to following Jesus and I went to a prayer meeting with my dad, even call him dad here this is sometimes we have some quirks but I'm like okay bible says don't call anybody on earth your dad so you have one father in heaven I'm like oh man I I need to honor my dad and I also can't call him my dad so had this habit of calling in my dad here because I can't say earthly dad but anyways, some other things I'll put like chiro or try to acknowledge Jesus in my my code and some employers don't always like that but some appreciate it and some of my coworkers appreciate it. But I I went to this group and this was more on the charismatic side of things and I know that there's some churches that have mistakes but again I was there and they all started praying in tongues. I was like, oh this is crazy. I'm I don't I don't know I don't know if I can do this. I pulled out my cell phone, I left the room and I was gonna call one of my friends, please get me out of here and as soon as I did and I thought my cell phone was full it just went off I couldn't get it back on I'm like this is God telling me I better accept now and I went in I went into the group and I'm like okay I'll accept Jesus and had kinda done it like mouthing it before but this time the he put his hand on me and said you know I remember feeling like something peaceful coming from him to me and like entering me and I felt a lot of peace and and and and kind of joy and like my mouth was felt like it was starting to move but I was also like blocking it and and he just said about I won't go too much into it but how I was gonna have a dream that night and I actually did have a dream about like me on a cliff it was all dry and God telling me that and another friend and I look like a zombie. Many people have tried to do what you're doing, they've all failed. And what I was trying to do was like join all religions in some way. And so things that over the next year I was kinda going to church and at the same time inside really angry, was like, don't you understand that you church people, you know, all these like, I'd have mean things going in my head at the same time as like trying to dive towards church. And over the next two years, I went, I was on some very hard medications, like they had me I gained like 50 pounds, and I was still getting drunk and and stuff like that and kinda making it to church, and I've made it back to college. I wanted to be with my friends. There was times that, like, people would be drawing and scribbling on paper, and I thought that they were actually, like, scribbling my mind around, and I I had to leave class by mid semester. So they're they're drawn on a paper and you think and you're feeling like they're controlling your mind somehow by Yeah. Like and they put their foot on the chair I was on, and I thought that they were, like, somehow drawing power from me. And before I went to school at that one point, I mean, it was the usual thing. I don't know why it happened to me too, but I was like, I thought I heard choppers going over my head, and like crows could like send messages to me and You're struggling. I was like, this is crazy. This is crazy. I was I was the depths of of things I mean, that's always a danger with this is like, describing the darkness for so much longer than describing the overwhelming light of Christ that that is such a contrast and so beautiful and powerful and healing and just what truly is life. But this is I I spent the the next two years like just I tried to kinda kill kill myself a few times like taking a knife out to like plunge it into me and I was back in college on 2005 I had to leave classes, I learned to juggle then, I forgot that again. But I made some friends and I rented a house with some females that were not, you know we were friends, it wasn't like we never did anything of I I don't know. That's just how people are in the world. And I guess at a certain point, one of my best friends had me, you know, for Halloween, he's like, why don't you dress up like as a nun and something and with like but a very perverse one. And I was like, oh, okay. You know? But I something happened over these next two years. And that was that even though I was still drinking, even though I was doing that, I stopped losing play I stopped I started to lose pleasure in all the evil. My girlfriend came down, we did things that, you know, I mean, you should do it until after marriage and I was like, you know, and she's like, yeah, it's a medicine so you just don't feel so much blood like before. And people would mock Jesus, and I I'd, like, feel bad about it. And there's times I would, like, fight, but it was like and it it was like beforehand, I could throw myself out into the abyss to find these weird things to say, and it's now it's like something would catch me and, like, not let me have these weird thoughts. And and I I was like, what is going on? And over the next and I looked to pictures up to that moment, and it's like things would get darker and darker and darker. And then when that, like moment I I I was prayed for, it's like this feeling of all of a sudden like God's like, got you now. And at the end of those tears, I mean, when people would say like, oh, you know, Jesus, even he showed partiality he preferred the humble to the prideful. I'm like, well and he said do unto others as you'd like unto you and wouldn't you rather be around somebody who's humble and and then with that none thing I felt terrible inside instead of me before where I would have been like, oh, you know, this is great. And then after that was done, I remember my friends mocked me for it instead of where they would celebrate it. And and I was just getting drunk every single day again, and I wasn't able to do my work, and somehow God kept saving me through that. And and then I started to feel like demons were were trying to tell me things like jump into the bathroom, you know, this bathroom window. I'm like, why? But I thought it was maybe God and I was like trying to like reach out to something to speak to me because I'm like, don't know what to do, psychiatrist won't know what to do. And I was like oh I see something to make a donation and I put it in there and just trying to figure out how to redeem whatever situation it was as if it were of God. And then it was like play some rave music for me and everything. And then it started to say, you know, how noble you are and I look like the guy from the Gladiator or something like that. And I'm like, well, no. I don't it's like, no. Think about it. And then, oh, I I don't know the perverse things or like sexual things that would, you know, like, it was, at the point, it was saying, like, you know, the man part was like a sword or something and her penis was like a sword and and I was like, what is going on? And it's like you have to go tell your friends that you have the keys to heaven and then it would stop me. You can't do it unless you really believe it. And I'd like turn Martinelli's into blood and I was like having the things about like Jesus's like things and but a very perverse way of it and that I was tele transport to be with my uncle for Christmas. I called him on Christmas like two hours before Christmas dinner, it's like I'll be there, just I'll get to the you know just I thought God was gonna tele transport me like Philip and then it was like he didn't do it, I'm like why and it's like see because you did that bad thing to this person so I'm gonna treat you like that and then it's like I just want you it's like there's gonna be surprises for you forever and the truth is that you're actually like math, you're actually God and Jesus is just a myth so that you know the truth about you being God. I'm like the Bible says that, you know, any spirit that says Jesus didn't come in the flesh is not of God. But it was like, I knew something was wrong.

LJ Cowan: [1:49:49] Up until this point, it seems like you were having your own thoughts about God, you were having your own prideful thoughts, and you were your own worst enemy. This just the last couple minutes, this just escalated because the conversations that you're describing are different than the conversations you're talking about before, it was your own thoughts. These don't sound like your thoughts. These to me sound like another entity.

Keith Vance: [1:50:18] Is that where we're going here? I had invited in things. I had tried to do automatic writing and whatnot to somehow connect to something beyond myself to be able to give me some kind of direction.

LJ Cowan: [1:50:30] K. And because this has a whole another layer and tone of scariness to me.

Keith Vance: [1:50:38] Yeah. And there's things out there that the Bible describes. You do not want to mess with the occult. You do not wanna mess with drugs. I'd say that a great portion, if not every person I've met met with, like, schizophrenia or, bipolar, either them or their parents were, involved with drugs, the new age, occultism, or mysticism. I don't wanna say that's a rule. I just wanna say that that is kind of like you notice people who fall in the rainbow flag of things have often suffered abuse as children. Oh. And so it it wasn't I was abused, I got into all these things that opened spiritual doors. And, you know, I mean, the the word pharmakeia, which is sorcery, is related to like using gems, to using drugs. Not drugs like I'm, you know, like I'm gonna take some herbal tea to to, you know, like some chamomile tea or something or maybe something to like to to help heal like even Hezekiah used a pumice of figs to help heal. But like strong drugs like cocaine, I'd even put Ritalin which is related to cocaine in and Adderall in that. I don't necessarily put all of those in that group. I know that we're not there yet but I I do think that all those things helped open doors k. To where there was a demonic component to what I was going through. K. Because there was a significant shift. It's been a long story, but here was a significant shift

LJ Cowan: [1:52:36] with the you're talking about depravity and these thoughts, but these were your own depraved thoughts. This just changes something else.

Keith Vance: [1:52:42] Yeah. Okay. And I mean, I remember that so that part is near the end of 2005. But even when I had left the and I'd just been prayed for right before that, when I left the hospital the first time, I felt like radiators were breathing and this person who said that evil thing was somehow Satan and he was like following me around. Some interesting things happened that you know God allowed that made me falsely put two and two together. But I remember going to somebody who is like a very strong person who would pray for people for deliverance and he didn't believe there was demonic possession but sometimes there was, you know, this could open doors and there's even he would he started praying for things that I hadn't told him but that I had, you know, been struggling with and that and and to cast out these, like, demons that were, like, trying to affect me. And I remember running out of that near the beginning of 2003 again, that room and onto the street going over a bridge like ripping off my shirt and everything feeling fire and then all of a sudden I felt peace. And I walked back and I I slept with you know that day well for the first time in a long time. I kept fighting against following Jesus and that invites seven times worse and if the house is clean. That's a whole other topic but I do I've I've witnessed like two times one of other people affected by demons, one was a friend who was in a college group like a per group we were in and she was just getting out of a really bad life style like me and her mom too, her mom had just quit smoking, she was gonna go to a retreat and then she all of a sudden started yelling and and about like as if she was a demon like I'm never gonna let her go, you can't have her. And now we were praying, I tried to pray in in tongues and and it was like I could sense it was like scared of me and the other leader came and prayed for her and and it it said that yeah this person she's never gonna go to the retreat and the the mom's gonna go back to smoking and out of me it came to say, no, Satan's a liar, she is gonna go to the retreat, her mom's not gonna smoke and she did go to the retreat and so anyways the leader prayed and the the spirit like left and there was one other time but it was maybe we'll get to it later to I wanna get to We're getting off track a little bit. Yeah, exactly. But I just had a thought

LJ Cowan: [1:55:21] that may be connected to this. Way back when your mom was sick, you said you brought an idol into the house. Do you think that might have opened something up way back then? Have you thought about that? And I don't know. I do believe so.

Keith Vance: [1:55:36] And I love the fact of, just the contrast that that idol I mean, she got so sick then. And I mean the thing about maybe going to the the the that supposed new age doctor something earlier and how it helped me get sick and then later and then all these things happen in my life. But I was really glad that later that same idol we went a couple years ago with some other brothers from here on a mission trip to Guatemala and we went to preach while they were doing an idol worship and asking them to to please turn to Jesus and from these dead things and they chased us out with like beer bottles and everything but it it was just kinda like this redemption of like this take in away what I felt was my mom's life in a sense Yeah. And being able to face up to that and all these things in college and being able to be supported to go preach there even though they had that leave. But yeah. I so there's that that spiritual component and it's it's obviously, if you get hit in the head with a hammer, you're not gonna think straight like for a moment. Like, there's a physical component, but there's I mean the the word mind, some people have linked that to spiritual area even in in some ways of seeing it, others think it's a physical, there's they're they're definitely linked together in a way that I I'm don't feel qualified to tell exactly where the separation is, but I can say some some things that happened that I believe were demonic. And and so I'll try to just speak to that and Yeah. As short of how can we ascertain the invisible, short of like God telling us that Okay. Let's pick better. Or the word Yeah. Showing us clearly. So there's so yeah. I I had all those things happening and then as I was writing a letter something I raped before I decided right at the end of two thousand five after that thing with the nun and everything, was like, the world has nothing to offer. And I wanted to stop being double minded and I said, Jesus, whatever you say I'm supposed to do, that's what I'm gonna do. And I I just felt like that was the moment that I from the heart, I know that's only by Jesus and his grace to be able to do it but it was this acknowledgement within that that was the moment I gave my life internally to Jesus not just mouth these words and you'll be saved. And God I know is working within me in the meantime But that was like where I believe my heart posture like changed and God just shortly after maybe the day after I remember writing a message to a friend it was like a love message and I'm like didn't feel that about her and it was like trying to make me do that and and then it this thing, a black force from above threw me off my chair to the floor and told me I was gonna go to hell. And and I was like, what? I didn't understand about sin. I was like, well, you just like pray to God, like, know, and he loves you and I I knew there was like I just never thought it was gonna go there or anything. And and all of a sudden the reality of that's, you know, a possibility and and it's actually most certainly where I deserve to go hit me like a like a train. And I like I was like what do I do? What do I do? And then I'm not this is again descriptive. It's not that this is the recipe to go to hell if you if you've even have you ever thought you were Jesus Christ or said that. I'm just saying that an a like this white light came and said, Satan is trying to make you go to hell and if you and to make you say that you are Jesus Christ. And if you do that, you're gonna go to hell. And I started yelling at the top of my lungs, like, if you imagine if you if you're gonna go to hell for the rest of eternity and and you truly believe that and that the the only that you've got to not do this, like, I was, like all the the the I that I started yelling Jesus Christ is Lord and I am not Jesus Christ. For hours my my roommates had to, know, they they eventually called the cops on me. They were worried and and and then it took like four police officers tasing me, wrestling me, I don't know what, putting me in a wagon to go to the hospital. And this was a day before New Year's I think in 2025. And, you know, I woke up briefly in this one room and I was like I started to say, I'm not Jesus. I don't know if they came in, gave me more drugs. And then I woke up later and I had all these IVs in me in this hospital room. And I thought the Lord was telling me, run out of here now. And I, like, ripped all these things out. I ran out of the hospital. The nurses tried to grab me, pulled off my row, everything, and and I ran across the street in my birthday suit, like a a four lane highway and jump jumped into a dumpster. And then I thought the Lord said, okay, Satan can't use you now. You're free to get out. And I I got out and police took me back in, and then they put me in the psych ward. And I was there yelling at times I I mean they they for for forty days for forty nights total, I was in two hospitals, thirty days in one until they had to move me to Pendleton. And people would tell me like no God is a God of love you know you're and I just knew that like if I looked at a woman lustfully all of a sudden all those things became apparent to me, I was worthy to go to hell. If I even hated somebody it was like I killed them. I was like you know, this is not prescriptive again, but I was like, Lord, just you know, I have all the angels in heaven praying for me and just everybody who's ever died. I don't wanna go to hell just for me to serve you, for me to do your will, for me to not sin in anything. And all this time, I still didn't understand the gospel fully. Mhmm. I mean, I believed in Jesus, but I didn't understand, like, the very simple truth that I had sinned. Mhmm. And even if I did everything right from then on, even if I never sinned again, I had sinned, and he could not justly let me into heaven. That all my past, he justly had his wrath upon me as this perfect god could not let me into that perfect clean room. And his perfect justice had that perfect wrath upon me. And that in his perfect love that while a just judge can't let, you know, just anyone go free for because he forgives them and and be righteous, you can pay a fine. Even somebody else can pay that fine and the judge can let you off. And he gave us Jesus Christ as a sacrifice. God himself took on a body, came in the God the son, took on flesh, and and he he paid because without the the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sins. And only his perfect blood, not the blood of sheep and goats, could cover the sins of the whole world. And I had to know that the reason I could have fellowship with God wasn't doing more right than wrong and and asking for forgiveness, and the people had sinned worse than me is is through Christ alone. And that was it it didn't become, like, clear to me. Even there, I was still trying to be like the way I'm gonna do this is because now I'm a Christian I believe and I'm never gonna I I just have to never sin again. I have to never sin again or else I'm gonna go to hell. And I was trying to figure out in my mind how to how to like say, oh, okay. All these things I did were not actually sin because I'm trying hard and God's gonna use them. And it was it was just this like kinda sinless perfectionism and I I started going to church all the time I could and and just saying all these things about how God's gonna make everything work out for your good and if you believe in God he's just gonna make it so that you make it to heaven, he's gonna perfect you till you get there and just believe in him. And he and and I went to church like seven times a week and a lot of those to not healthy churches just wherever they'd have a service and people would say what are you gonna do now for God? And I'm like gonna be an evangelist. It would come out of my mouth, the thing I most not wanted to be when I was in the flesh, and I'd be like, you know what? Okay. I'll be an evangelist. And and when I was in the hospital, one person, Ron Hoke, he said, if you see this, God bless you so much, Ron. He He visited me in Portland and said you should get baptized now. And then I was like, you know what? When I get out of here, I'll do that. And I got baptized 02/27/2020 of twenty '2 thousand '6, and that was the earliest I could in in union church and and I I remember something. We're not saved by baptism but there was some kind of thing where at that moment I stopped stopped having these weird sensations that like when the demons were talking to me thinking it was like God in in the same way. We still need a lot of discernment but there was that was I felt a lot of peace. I went to a retreat and for the next it felt like ten years. It was always one day happier than the last except for one short portion where I was like, I don't I feel kind of down, don't know why. And then somebody came and said, you're feeling a little down but it it's because and they didn't know me, they were like, but it's just you need to recognize that your friend, comforter, the Holy Spirit, invite him into your life more. And I started doing that and somebody said you're never gonna feel lonely like you felt before and since that day 2,009 something, I've never felt lonely like before. And so just I remember and at that moment at the end of 2006, a lady in the prayer group she said the same one with the other one with a person who was going to the retreat and whatnot. It was her first prayer group. I I I she I prayed with the people there because I was saying maybe God will heal me someday. She's like, no, you pray, you feel fire, you're gonna be healed. And I prayed at that group and her leader, it was her first time came, put his hand on my head and said, the Lord has decided to heal you tonight but he wants to see your faith. I said inside, Lord, me in my unbelief, I believe. And right after that he came up again, he put his hand on my head and I felt electricity in me and like things growing in my brain. He said what you're feeling now is that degenerative illness has been cast out. I have the anointing that Jesus had when he healed I think the paralytic maybe, I don't know. Maybe the blind man who needed prayer choice, I don't know. But and that degenerative illness has been cast out and your stories can help a lot of people to have faith and and and pursue their healing, come to healing too. Or I think it's just said come to healing too. And I felt so much clearer, and I was on like, twenty five milligrams of Zoloft at the time and a whole bunch of other things and lametrile, some lamet, things for bipolar. And and then he said now in seven months go get tested and, and and then you can see about maybe getting off the meds maybe I don't know but get tested in seven months for your illness. I'm like oh nobody can really test for this anyways I'm healed I'm healed I went off all the medications right away and I started to kind of have a friend she was she did have schizophrenia I didn't really understand at the point we but we had a kind of relationship, we never did anything physical but like you know like marriage that you're supposed to just do in marriage but I noticed that I was starting to fall into some things that were like not so okay and like in my my thinking I wasn't thinking very straight and my dad's like you gotta get back to the psychiatrist, psychiatrist, you gotta get back and and I went to another one who was like more conservative Christian and I never wanted to go on Haldol but he that is an antipsychotic that was an older one but it was a lot cheaper there And the other ones I mean we had to pay I don't know how many hundreds or thousands a month to be able to stay on the medication and this was like $15 a month and I was on a baby dose. And somehow that worked for me. And somebody came and said, God will finish the healing with you but He wants you to learn to be obedient first. And I tried a few times after that to come off the medication, I met another lady Tori Connolly online and she had gotten off medication in 1998. She had been hospitalized 22 times. I never went back to the hospital after that second time I mean the second when I was even in, so the I do wanna say the first hospital people were really nice, it was a great place they were like trying to say that and I'm all like you know I just want the fear of the Lord and to avoid sin. And then I ended up in another hospital which was one in Pendleton that was in the Jack Nicklaus movie One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest where everybody was just like people were peeing in the bed next to me, was in a shared room, people were yelling all the time, I was yelling all the time, I went to the chaplains all I could and all my all the my dad's friends here in Guatemala were praying for me and he came up to get me when I was there. And at the end of I I stayed a little bit with him and at the end of that you know like ten ish days there the hospital owner said you know what he's gotten so much better now that you're here we've never let anybody out this early but we'll let you do this because he needs you but honestly a lot of people here don't need to be here and I mean people would express love there and that like one people I would yell and he would come out and yell with me as his expression of love and you know you could see people suffering and trying to help in different ways but he he said people here have not had a visitor some in look at the visitor sheet and there was like I don't know the last ninety days there was only one visitor for one person and some had it most hadn't had it in years. And he said most could be free if they just had somebody who cared like you. Let me, let me make an interjection.

LJ Cowan: [2:11:09] Yeah. I've been letting you do all the talking because I don't understand this world, brother. Like my heart goes out to you. I can't identify with this. I'm just letting you do the talking because I have nothing to say. But what you just said about they let you leave the psych ward because your dad came and hey, look at the sign in sheet, nobody comes to visit these people. I just had a thought. I just had a thought of the psych ward of the earth. And one man entered that psych ward. He signed in, and I'm so glad he did. He did for us what we couldn't do for ourself. And through his life and his death and his resurrection, there cannot only be mental healing or spiritual healing, all healing through Jesus Christ. This isn't the end. I'm just listening to you tell your story. It's a it's a tragedy, man. It's a tragedy. So that was my one little interjection.

Keith Vance: [2:12:38] I love I mean, what you said about the psych ward of the earth when we have little children's genitalia being cut off, when we have babies killed in the womb. We have good called evil, evil called good, people putting put in prison just for in their head praying in front of an abortion clinic, people celebrating somebody who marries a six year old and and thinks that he's the utmost prophet and holds others as slaves and all the the rest of that and others who are supposedly against that celebrating people who do that and amount and people believing things true like all the wrong that's been done through like evolution that that that people think, oh Jews can die because they're less evolved, African Americans can, they're not human because they're less evolved, people in the womb are not humans. We

Intro voiceover: [2:13:35] are

Keith Vance: [2:13:36] desperately sick. We are desperately wrong. If we think we can be right in our own understanding

LJ Cowan: [2:13:43] We're infected.

Keith Vance: [2:13:44] We are we are infected. We are infected by sin, and it runs deep. And we are deeply deceived and in deep need of a savior. And I mean, that that deception, it it gets to the point of people refuse to love the truth about God wants us to love one another and to commit to be lead lives of godly love. And that he he's gives us everything that we're not gonna fail to get to that. But we have to we have to choose we have to choose but and this is this is something I believe God works in us to desire and do but I think the words that we speak are part of what he uses so that we do that. To surrender to him, to leave the kingdom of darkness and to be instruments of light. And he will perfect us unto the day of his coming. He Jesus didn't tell us just what we've have to do. He died to us to make sure that we're gonna do it. We just have to believe in him and and he he's he and and you know call everyone who calls out Jesus Christ is Lord and truly believes in their heart that God raised him from the dead, that that Jesus Christ who came in the flesh he he suffered as a human like us, they're gonna be saved. God's gonna do that work. Now we can say we believe but even the believes, the demons believe and tremble. Or we can just say, Lord, Lord. If we actually do, it's like, it's gonna show itself that that marks that we have peace with God and that he's chosen us as his own and he has a right now not to be under his wrath, but to to make everything work together for our good, to be conformed to the image of his son. And Beautiful. It's we've got an amazing God. He's sovereign and like you said nothing is random out there. And even though it seems like a constricted life, there's also wide open spaces. There's a freedom. It's it's it's we have to trust him. But that and the truth came to set us free. And I was deep in my sins and, you know, I was in these churches that were kinda health wealth prosperity churches at the same time some that were more sober. I I was out there like if I just like fast more, pray more, I'll be used for more miracles, more this, and and I saw amazing miracles and things and I mean times where people prophesied, it's come true, I've had you know visions of a person told me you're gonna go travel within a year, it's gonna be like supernatural and then somebody calls me from China and I even like and they're like come up here to work and and I had a vision of like the the person who was gonna be there like on that red couch. I'm like, oh, I and I had a vision I I think and and you had this red couch and he's like, oh, yeah. It's the couch we have out here and he showed it to me and it's like and there's just the these things are there, but I was like making at the meat and potatoes when they're there icing on the cake and they're they're very useful to help build one another up. But I didn't understand that the the the that blessed is he who not seeing believes and that the big thing we need is is God to give us that that new birth to give us a new heart. Like I thought that it was just this religious thing people Baptist or whatever. They'd have this thing. They go to church and, you know, they'd say these sermons. But it like leading a life out there that is like I'm gonna stand up for Jesus and truth and, you know, for the life of babies in the womb against all this insanity. It takes a a supernatural power to not only do that, but to do that hidden, to do that in love, to do that not for the appraisal of men, and to put your own resources out there as a soldier at your own expense. I mean people out there will will kill for their religion but you know this is like a gen you know people who will die for that and people went out of their way this one lady with you know and her her family like she would when I was sick I wanted just this friend of mine who was in psychiatry to come and somehow like bash away all these like weird thoughts in my head and instead there was this lady who had a I think a gift of discernment, she would call me up at five in the morning, like seven in the morning or 06:30 because I would sleep till two, I was depressed and suicidal, she's like get up, come on, get up, sign those job contracts, come on. And she'd pray with me for two three hours and take me over with her husband and family to like sit with them. Like a psychiatrist will charge $200 an hour to sit with you and maybe prescribe some medication. And here's somebody who spent thousands of hours probably over the last twenty years, I mean especially in those first three years she was like a mom to me for free. Never asked anything, was doing it in absolute purity, I never sensed she was doing it for anything other than like and she she would pray, she would know how to be like, alright, you know, pray, you know, say these Psalms, this is like also spiritual warfare, know, read these these warfare Psalms like trust in Jesus, know, like know about his blood but she wasn't she would just she was more like an encouragement to me and at a certain point I recognized I needed more of a male instructor too, but it was just the sacrifice she put and that God put people like that in my life. So I did go to these things where they they were more about like miracles and they said at one point, I'm trying to make this shorter, but God when I was in China I was trying to explain to a person because I always wanted to just tell everybody who passed you know God loves you, trust in Jesus, he'll make things okay, give your life to him and that's that's important and it's central but I there was this one person who was drunk in China his name is Ryan and he's like oh my life is bad I'm like just give your life to Jesus, trust in him and and he's gonna make everything okay. And he's like, my grandma said something about him. I'm like, but why is it so bad? I'm like, just just believe in him, it'll be okay. And then I thought I had this impression, tell him the rest. I'm like, the rest? What do you mean the rest? It's all about faith and just trusting in you, and that's what pleases you. And God allowed me to get more sick there and have to come back from China. I had a most realistic impression. I met some amazing people from the underground church who would like, you know, who's like overweight and he I was like, Lord, I don't want any more fatty food and and they they they don't allow the real gospel in the main churches there but somehow he met me in the international church and then he'd like pray for people on the street, he bought them food, ran out of money, I couldn't he knew that I only had to offer him money to help him buy food, he didn't accept me do to buy him food, And when I was gonna buy food, Paul Kim, he like he's like, no. No. He pointed me to steamed vegetables and, like, somehow knew that I'd asked God that. And, I bought that, and then he sat down and grabbed these food, this food that somebody else had left. He's China, food delicious. Pray for China. Pray for China if anybody's listening for this. But I saw very realistic, and this is the only time vision that I've had this, of a demon in the roof that was so big that it would, like, fill this whole roof here, and that I would be about half the size of that. I know nobody else can see it, but that diamond. And all you could see was like utter hopelessness. And I was like, you know, I rebuke you in the name of Jesus. I rebuke you. And it it would just reminded me that even the archangel Michael doesn't said, may the Lord rebuke you. And I was rebuked by it and then it left and I had a dream that I would get sick if I stayed there and I had to kinda go back on a bit more medications and come back for a little while to Guatemala. And to kinda learn about the gospel that in acts twenty twenty seven Paul says, I am guiltless of the life of you all because I did not cease to declare the whole counsel of God to you. And it's not just about saying these one parts that people wanna hear, you need to know the things about like first Corinthians seven, do not be deceived, know wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of heaven neither fornicators nor idolaters, nor drunkards, nor homosexuals, nor greedy people, nor swindlers, nor extortioners, nor rilers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you, it continues, but you're washed, renewed, sanctified by the Holy Spirit. So that's not condemnation, but we have to in in in Thessalonians two, it says how it's a word that works in us to be able to do what God says, and we need to let people know that. So if they trust in God that the word can work in them, that they leave those those things. And so eventually in 2012, I was going to these miracle things by though I was brought to more and more things about false teaching and I stayed up all night hearing extra biblical contest this, but about testimonies of people who went to hell and they sometimes saw people who were professed Christians there, but they had like not forgiven people and held a a terrible grudge against people all their life. And they had or they had stayed in fornication with like nuns and other things and just a whole bunch of things and then they were like, why am I here? And then he brought me to one of the pastors I listened to and how he said, people might not be acquainted with this, but in Acts eight, I think it is, Simon the sorcerer is, and he tries to buy the Holy Spirit with money. And Peter says, you know, your money perish with you because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money. Your your heart is bitter and pray to God that this may be forgiven to you. And and he says, you know, please please pray to the Lord that this be forgiven me. And this pastor said, believe it or not, Peter was actually wrong in this and Simon was right to try to give money for the anointing. Peter just wanted to kill him because, you know, wasn't it enough? He had already killed Ananias and Sapphira in the earlier chapter that you know they died because they lied to about the offering they gave. And that opened my eyes as this pastor had you know in the church their own private jet and all kinds of things that were going on and and would boast about money and but there was supposed big razzmatazz miracles and you're attracted to that when you're sick and, you know, you're like in debt and just barely escaping. That that was evil. And and other things he had said like, we had to be the I am like Jesus was the I am. The same things the demons were trying to have me do. They're doing in that church. And I knew I had to have discernment. And then I went not to a hospital, but I went to my dad left on a trip and I had to stay with a family there and they had me kind of in a room where I was just going to church and not the Lord sent me through a desert for again about a month. I don't know the exact days and it was just that. And yeah, I I don't wanna boast about like any nodding or anything like that but there's I just do wanna say that you know it like if if you guys do fast at times it is like spinach to Popeyes like fasting to a Christian and it's good to have some of that in your life not to make it an idol but if people are wondering because like some things I went through. So I went through that and then the next two years I was kinda like recouping and recognizing I needed discernment. I'd already decided before that this some Christian stuff is kinda crazy. I'm just gonna pray the bible. And in 2013 I'm like, you know, I'm tired of being kinda support. I'd like I know Francis Chan, he prayed to have some money so he could help people in need. Like I'd like a better job and you know I've worked in computers and I was kinda in and out and I got a job with a friend in Silicon Valley working on a game called Covet Fashion and I was making fair amount of money and I was like, oh, this is more than I want. I was like, I don't I don't even need all this, like trying to do it, just just accept it. You don't know the the cost of things in Burlingame, California, like it's expensive here. And so I used it and I was trying to help some people out and but obviously I could have done a lot better. And and then about nine months into that I was like, I hate working on something that's title is like breaking one of the 10 commandments. And there was a person, he's not perfect. Coveting. Coveting. Good. We have 10 commandments and yeah. The tenth one. Yep. And it was just vain. It was like people putting on fancy dresses and spending money. There was no spiritual goodness to it. And like they're spending their money on it. And I I believe the Lord said, I'm gonna put you on something more meaningful. And in this time, I I don't wanna get I had an impression that when I met who my wife was gonna be, I'm trying to and when I stopped drinking caffeine like I was drinking 12 cups of coffee a day that the Lord was gonna take off the rest of my medication but I was like, oh it kinda stopped in the past drinking caffeine and it hadn't happened. I kinda put it out of my mind. I sent a lady who I knew that is the only other person who had put crosses and stuff from my college and became a kind of a Christian after she left and we had been friends. And I had sometimes been praying for my wife. I bought yellow and I'd find these yellow things to give to my wife, future wife over the past years like a yellow bear and I bought a yellow card. I know this story and this is a long story. Are you gonna give us the condensed I'm trying to condense it here because the healing was gonna happen after I met my future wife. And I sent her a card and like a like like a gift card too and then she started to act a little bit more interested in me and I was like no no she's not my wife you know I just sent her that and everything but it was a yellow card and and and then somebody's like no she and I started thinking well maybe maybe she could be she's kind of pretty and you know and then they said that's your wife and we decided to go out and at the same time I was leaving caffeine and a week later somebody in a conference it was all about what the bible says about prophecy said, she didn't know me but I asked for prayer for for me and she said the Lord wants you off your medication right now. I said, Lord, I've tried this in the past and I've kind of forgot at that moment about the other two things, but I want the okay because one of the things about mental illness that I've kind of noticed is that it often has to do with rebellion against God and witchcraft is like rebellion. Whether people are rebelling through new age things, whether they're rebelling through drugs, whether they're rebelling in various other ways. And I had to learn that life was not like Star Wars that it was like the empire against the the rebels or something and that the rebels were good or whatever. Like I mean obviously we're in a in a world that is falling but but I had this kind of perverse view and I wasn't trusting like authority and I had to learn to work with my doctors, to work with my parents, to work with my pastors, to obey them within what the bible said and to have my conscience reshaped. Now by this point, my life was back in order. I was understanding more about like, you know, not being in unsound doctrines, trying to stay close to the word. And I had all my payments well and I and and then the pastor, my dad here, my doctor all said try it and I've been off coffee, tea. Every now and then, I'll I'll have some some hot chocolate or chocolate, which,

LJ Cowan: [2:30:54] I thought the Lord eventually said that was okay. And I can understand why you would be weary of anything or leery of caffeine. I can understand why you would, like, be hesitant. Because to me, have some tea, what's wrong with that? Because of what you've been through. Yeah. So I I can I didn't understand this when we were talking earlier in the week, but haven't heard it the second time? I understand now.

Keith Vance: [2:31:18] Yeah. I see, some people can have a beer or a a glass of wine, but you don't wanna do that if you're an alcoholic. You don't wanna and, you know, when you know that the the the utter depravity that that can take you to and your susceptibility to abuse. So I do so I I had that. And since November 2014, I have not been you know, I went off a short amount of time I think it took to go off the medications. I've not been back on psych meds and I haven't taken most medications but sometimes I'll take an aspirin or something but or an antibiotic. But you know it's just I felt more awake since then because the medication would make you kind of sleepy being off coffee than I ever did on it. And second of all, I think the Lord wanted me to do this to after that pot was gonna be more accepted in society and just kind of like as an aid for people to know that pot, you know you don't need it, just just stay away from it kinda thing. So even though it's accepted, so that was 2014, I got engaged, I moved to another job and I've thankfully not been on that again. I was shortly with my we got engaged to this other lady and also during this time I met I actually did end up in a homeless shelter because I had prayed to find something more meaningful, there was somebody who ministered to the homeless a lot, but I had gotten a job you know where you would to build an app to help donate things. So anyways in 2015 I was having some struggles, I I stayed some time trying to minister to the homeless learning about homeless shelters but I was staying with this one person in Feroqua, Nolan, who is really generous and he let me stay with him for a little while as I was looking for work over there. And he was just wondering about like what the bible says about homosexuality at this and at this time Ray Comfort, I always felt like the Lord was pointing me to him to and I was all like, oh, you know, he's just kind of a normal preacher and I want to know the the big things that right? And they pointed me to them. At that moment, he helped me to really acknowledge like hell's best kept secret about like how the law is a schoolmaster to lead us to Jesus and the gospel that we explained earlier. And all the previous times I wanted to be a preacher on the streets but I it was always a personal thing to to people. And so I was with Nolan and that movie came out and I didn't have much money and I just felt to call them up and and they were really nice. They're like we've never done this before but have a free ticket to like this movie called Audacity movie. He made it free later and I showed it to him and that the whole point of it was, and you guys should watch it, it's still I think my overall favorite movie. It's just so complex like I like these complex movies in the world and this is just hits on so many things in a in a kinda interesting way. But that if you love people you tell them the truth that we don't hate people who are, you know, have homosexuality but, you know, if you don't warn them, it's like, you know, if if if there's a faulty elevator and you take the sign off the door and you just like kind of roll a red carpet into that elevator just so that they don't feel bad. It's like, no, don't worry. I know you need to get there in time. I don't wanna make you feel bad that the elevator doesn't work or whatever, and they fall to their death. It's like so I don't wanna ruin the movie, but after that it clicked and I started to and it's short. It's free and it's fifty minutes. And I I started to go out and preach in the fields, and I thought the Lord enabled me to do it. So since then I I just like would go along the street, start street preaching and I spent some years in homeless shelters because of Vincent Panizo who would like just treat people until he himself ended up like on the streets and using all his money to was that's beyond me. But like he he helped a a lady who's schizophrenic get a house who would only curse him all the time and until the point where she's like, you know, I'm so thankful for you. And I wanted more meaning until eventually I was like okay Lord I've had enough because I don't want I wanna earn my own keep here and then he got me like other work so I haven't been back there. But in 2018 the same pastor who told me that I should get baptized and saw me at my worst and I had stayed with him for a couple weeks then, he said I had just come back from a mission trip to Haiti where I had been working at at, you know, I went to preach in in Virginia for a while and I felt I was supposed to. And with working at a goodwill, the first job I could find, I don't know why I can find it with computers all the time like I would do work but they would not pay me for it or things would happen and so I'm like okay I'm in the state, I prayed for it, I'm learning. And then I got this computer work right after I prayed to to leave. But anyways, I kept high fiving people at the goodwill and the children and everybody would love it. Even the Muslims would high five me, and I I talked to them about how, like, in Hebrew, Nabi and and Nabiha is like prophetess, and there was a prophetess Deborah, and they'd be like, oh, this is interesting. The only person who didn't high five me was one person they would call father Frank. And he would everybody else would be like, hi, father Frank. And and he he's like, act bad towards me. I'm like, I don't know what's going on. And somebody's like somebody's filed a complaint they want you to stop hallelujah high fiving and I'm like well, and then they're like but you know actually let's just wait. I'm like and I said how speaking the bible is just speaking the truth and they let me continue. I put happy Merry Xmas, and another coworker's like, say, don't say Xmas, say Christmas. So I always said, you know what? Okay. I know X is for that. I put Christmas, and I I knew I was already under the gun. And then somebody came and said, father Frank wanted you to stop putting Christmas. And no. It was more like, father Frank is really upset at you. He's speaking bad about you. And I went I'm like, you know, mister Frank, why are you upset with me? He's like, you know what? You've probably, like, scanned my address, and here you are. Don't you see that there's Muslims here and that there's other people here? How dare you put Christmas here and exclude them and everything? And even my bosses were like, you know the only person who's ever complained about you is father Frank and if he wants to, like, not purchase here, he can go away. So I got a question.

LJ Cowan: [2:38:46] Where are we going at right now? Because I'm getting lost.

Keith Vance: [2:38:49] The reason for this is the fact that I've meant I've I've we can be called Christians and think that we're Christians, and everybody esteem us as Christians, and then we're attacking others for for for trying to present Christ. And we can all be in a different, like, whether people are really well known pastors and really glorified that, you know, blessed are you when people speak poorly of you and and you're hated. It's not that we aim for that. I mean, elders should be well spoken of by others. But we need to have a knowledge of the of the gospel and of Jesus ourselves.

LJ Cowan: [2:39:35] I'm glad I asked you that because you're right. We need we do need to have a a knowledge of what what it is to be a Christian, a follower of Christ, and to reflect Him. As a Christian, what's a Christian mean? A little Christ, a reflection of Christ, or to reflect him, or people's where when we're doing it right, people don't see us. They see him. That's when we're doing it right.

Keith Vance: [2:40:01] And as he was hated, sometimes I'll hate him. It was just kind of one of those things is like, I mean, here I am celebrating Jesus and for another Christian to hate me just because I'm celebrating Jesus was kind of weird. And even the Muslims wouldn't do that, know. And that's a whole other ball of a can of worms but I I I wanted to, know, just there is other Christians there who had kind of like hooked up when they were portraying themselves as like master evangelists and I had to like declare that that wasn't the way to go. That's And so these are are things that that you run across and especially when you have a history of mental illness. Go ahead, brother. I'm sorry. No, you're good. You're good.

LJ Cowan: [2:40:53] I feel like we're getting into something that's a conversation for another day. I got one more question for you. In regard to your life story, In regard to your life story, The things that the things that came into your life that were hard, difficult, that were used against you by forces of darkness to keep you lost. When God wants to get a hold of somebody, you can get a hold of him, can he?

Keith Vance: [2:42:00] Yeah. He's the only one who finds that lost coin.

LJ Cowan: [2:42:04] And sometimes sometimes it takes a while for him to get there, but he doesn't give up on us. And that's the that's the takeaway that I don't have from this. That it's never too late. Okay? It's never too late. I wanna ask you one last question. If someone's listening to this, they feel like they're losing their mind, overwhelmed by darkness, overwhelmed by life, bewildered. Where do I go from here? Your story was a story of bewilderment and loss. I asked you, you know, when we talked last week, said, hey, did you ever contemplate suicide? You're like, no, Keith. Because I knew if I committed suicide, I would be in that abyss that I was afraid of. So you were like trapped. You're trapped in this realm. A lot of people choose suicide to escape this realm, to escape what it is they're going through. You're trapped. You're trapped. So that person who may feel some of those things in your story, what's the solution? What would you would you speak to?

Keith Vance: [2:43:26] Yeah. I mean, I thought about suicide before, but when I was in that moment in the hospital and I knew that hell was real, that did not cross my mind at that point. Your only thought is not going to hell. And when you recognize that hell is real, it's like a gift because the fear of God helps you avoid evil. Mhmm. And it drive it drove me to Jesus and that was super important. There's a few verses that were very important to me too. One was to consider it pure joy when you face trials of many different kinds because the testing of your faith builds patience and patience must finish its work so that you lack nothing. And patience was a very very important aspect in this. The first thing it says about love is love is patient in first Corinthians 13. And a lot of this was you know I wanted to to be healed in 2006 and it wasn't until 2014 and even then it was like a cleft lip. It was like I could eat now, but you could see that something had happened. And so there's there was a a big difference. There's a lot of different things, I I working with and understanding and trusting Jesus and the biggest thing that I guess I wanna take away with this that is so after after twenty eighteen and I celebrated that I had preached over the past years, I started working with another company in Guatemala with the and we've been partners in this company and and others. And they've written down documents that when I was thinking about getting my gun rights restored because if you've had mental illness, the Charlie Kirk thing happened, there's an interesting story. You need an okay from a judge. And I don't really like guns, but it passed through my mind to I felt that it would be wise to maybe get a license. And they I have several documents of people who said that in the past years, he has acted with a sober mind there's no reason to not restore his rights for this and that's people who I've worked with, people who have known me, some for over twenty, you know for almost twenty years. So you can I know others who are Christians who've gone into that point and to the thing that I've learned in this that has most maintained my stability is our fight against Satan? The bigger is to stay knowing that the blood of Christ makes us right with God, and we should flee. We should cleave to him, we should remain in him as soon as like anything is already kind of like even as a bad thing comes into our minds, if we try to fight against it in our own strength, I mean, we've already failed for it being something bad in our motivations. We run to God, we seek his strength, his grace and mercy, and and abide in Christ through what he did, and and and and and trusting in his word and and staying at his feet like the feet of Jesus, like Mary did at the feet of Jesus, which sometimes move patiently. But just knowing the gospel, delighting in the gospel, the most central thing is is it's not some razzmatazz like magical prayer you make. So there is healing, I know other Christians who have been healed in in with far more hospitalizations than I have, but the I I mean I'd say obey your your pass, Learn to work with your pastors, your doctors as long as they don't go out of the Bible too.

LJ Cowan: [2:47:41] That's good. I LJ, I'm glad we met. Thankful to call you a friend. Bless you, brother. I'm thankful that you're able to share your story. I'm thankful that it's a story of God's goodness and God's grace because God is good. If anybody listens to this and has questions, can I put them in contact with you? Yes. Don't put your don't put your email out right now. We'll put it on the description or something. But go ahead. Go ahead. Okay. Thank you. Yeah. I'm hoping that I can be an aid. And above all,

Keith Vance: [2:48:23] one of the things you learn in all this is that I'm I'm nothing. Maybe I I wanna be an aid, but Jesus is who we need to look to. And and and stay humble, you know. We need to to stay humble in all this too.

LJ Cowan: [2:48:39] I know you asked if we could pray to start. I said, no. That's not the way I'd do it. But I said, we can pray at the end. I'd like to hear you pray. Sure, brother.

Keith Vance: [2:48:53] Heavenly father, what an honor to be able to spend this time. Maybe some of this darkness that I've expressed people can identify and I feel woefully underdone with expressing all the marvelous good things you've done in in my my life since then. There's battles and it's a continual salvation you have us in, we're not in heaven yet and we'll face struggles. Just let people know that you have overcome the world and that you will save them from all of them. Help people know about your love, help people find fellowship in the church and to find good churches churches that will really preach the the word truth fully even though we're all imperfect. Help people to find good fellowship and above all to have the fellowship in the Holy Spirit and to trust in your word. Come alive in us. May may it be just be glorified in our lives. Please heal those who are seeking the healness, but may it be a total healness healing, Lord, in their lives. Amen. In Jesus' name.

Intro voiceover: [2:50:21] And honest working faith Still Strong. No rush. No rain.