Automatic episode summary
Ted Armstrong sits down with Keith Vance to trace a thirty-year addiction and the seven and a half years of sobriety that followed it. Keith opens with the ordinary furniture of Ted's life: Michigan, two years of marriage to his wife Alma, three children, two grandchildren, a 2009 Electra Glide Ultra he put 12,000 miles on in a single summer, second shift at a plant that makes precast pavers and fire pits, and a gym habit he keeps up at 61. Alma first noticed Ted through a Facebook post marking two years sober — a pizza box with the words written on it — and the two talked four hours a day from opposite sides of the world before she came to Michigan and got the snow angel she had dreamed about.
The conversation then turns back to the beginning. Ted grew up on Stony Lake near Oxford, the son of a strict Oakland County policeman, and says he never partied in high school — he preached against it. After graduation the Michigan drinking age moved from 18 to 21, so he and a friend rode motorcycles to Florida, where 18 still held; within months he knew alcohol would be a problem. At about 20 or 21, logging alone in January, the top of a dead tree he had cut snapped off and struck him on the head. He came to with his face pressed into the ground and three compressed discs in his back. He and his doctor went against surgery in favour of physical therapy and pain management, and that is where the painkillers began: Vicodin, then stronger Vicodin, then OxyContin, Percocet, Darvocet.
Ted is unsparing about what came next. He describes becoming a compulsive liar — a man who had always despised liars — and using doctors and dentists to keep the supply moving. He explains how he refilled sealed energy-drink cans with high-alcohol beer and drank them through his shifts, and how three or four hours without a drink brought shakes and sweats. He describes the shame underneath it: not being able to look people in the face, or in a mirror; an elderly woman on a walker at a party store telling the cashier to serve him first, because he needed it more than she did. "I abandoned God," he says. "He didn't abandon me."
The middle of the episode is a hard warning about Suboxone. Prescribed it at his first treatment centre, Ted stayed on it seven years — he says he later learned it was meant for roughly two months — so the stretches when people believed he was sober were, in his telling, never sobriety at all. Coming off it at a holistic centre in Indiana cost him twenty-two consecutive days without sleep, along with hallucinations and constant thoughts of suicide. By then he had been through six treatment centres.
He left Indiana still intending to disappear: a cheap motel in the Upper Peninsula, a 401(k) cheque, and enough alcohol to finish it. The plan came apart in his parents' driveway, where his Jeep tipped over at five miles an hour and a seat belt he almost never wore refused to release, ratcheting tighter each time he reached for his knife. A volunteer fireman cut him free through the windshield. Within a day he was arrested twice, and the pint he drank in his parents' house was his last drink.
At 54, Ted told his father everything for the first time, and his father's answer was to take him to church the next morning. Ted describes the compulsion lifting while he was prayed for at the front, and then the slow rebuilding: AA every day, a gym in Charlevoix whose members became a family, a friend who found him work he still has, feelings that returned in a rush at a meeting, and five sober years his father lived to see and to say he was proud of. The episode closes on the two relationships that frame it — a last phone call with his father, and a daughter he has not spoken to in almost eight years, whose door he says he will not push on.
Speakers
- Intro voiceover other
- Keith Vance host
- Ted Armstrong guest
- Crosstalk other
Chapters
- 1:04 Meeting Alma across the world
Ted explains how a family connection through his daughter-in-law led Alma to a Facebook post marking his second year sober, and how months of four-hour conversations followed. He says another relationship was the last thing he was looking for.
- 3:47 First snow, and being Papa
Alma, born and raised in the Philippines, got the snow angel she had dreamed about when a freak storm hit on the drive from the airport. Keith and Ted then compare being a grandfather to being a father, and Ted talks about his grandchildren Meadow and Archer.
- 8:17 Hiking, a Harley, the gym
Ted's three hobbies: the trails at Rex Beach on Lake Michigan, a 2009 Electra Glide Ultra he put 12,000 miles on in one summer, and a gym routine he admits goes light on legs. Keith proposes a ride together over the Mackinac Bridge and hands Ted a Still Strong hat before the story starts.
- 16:19 A cop's son who never partied
Ted describes a good childhood on Stony Lake near Oxford under a strict father who was an Oakland County policeman, and a high school where he preached against drinking. After graduation he and a friend rode motorcycles to Florida for the lower drinking age, and within months he knew alcohol would be a problem.
- 24:16 The tree, and the pain pills
Logging alone in January at about 20 or 21, Ted was struck on the head by the top of a dead tree and came to with his face pressed into the ground and three compressed discs. He and his doctor chose pain management over surgery, and the prescriptions began to escalate.
- 30:59 The lies that protected the addiction
Ted walks through the lying that came with the drinking, including refilling sealed energy-drink cans with high-alcohol beer to get through a shift. Keith asks for the detail deliberately, so that both the addict in denial and the parent who cannot believe it can recognise what they are hearing.
- 37:50 Shame, and its cost at home
Ted describes a shame he could not look past — not into anyone's face, not into a mirror — and an elderly woman at a party store who told the cashier to serve him first. He talks about what it did to his family, including the last two years his daughter lived at home.
- 45:48 Suboxone, and sleepless days
Prescribed Suboxone at his first treatment centre and kept on it for seven years, Ted argues it left him dependent rather than sober, and urges anyone entering treatment to refuse maintenance medication. Coming off it at a holistic centre in Indiana cost him twenty-two nights without sleep, hallucinations, and constant thoughts of suicide.
- 1:12:26 The plan to disappear
Out of treatment at 54 and staying with his parents, Ted had it worked out: a 401(k) cheque, a cheap motel next to a bar in the Upper Peninsula, no phone, and enough alcohol to end it. The plan came apart in his parents' driveway when his Jeep tipped over at five miles an hour and a seat belt he almost never wore refused to release.
- 1:30:53 An honest conversation, then an altar
After a second stay in jail, Ted told his father the whole truth for the first time, and his father's answer was to take him to church the next morning. Ted describes going forward for prayer and the compulsion for alcohol leaving him.
- 1:41:40 What sobriety gave back
Ted lists what came after: being able to look in a mirror, wanting people around him again, a gym in Charlevoix whose members became a family, a friend who found him a job he still holds, and feelings that flooded back at an AA meeting. He and Keith talk about why the gym does something no bar ever did.
- 1:59:06 His father, and a door left open
Ted describes helping care for his father in his decline, the five sober years his father lived to see, and the last phone call, held to his father's ear. He closes on his daughter Lily, whom he has not spoken to in almost eight years, and on why he will not push.
Key takeaways
- 32:50 The practical mechanics of hiding it: sealed screw-top energy-drink cans refilled with high-alcohol beer and drunk through a full shift, a six o'clock supply run after his wife left for work, and every empty thrown away, because "returnables were my enemy."
- 1:41:40 "Addiction loves isolation." Ted says isolation is the worst thing an addict can do, because once you are alone the addiction is all that is left to care about — and that wanting to be around people again was one of the first things sobriety gave back.
- 2:05:18 On his estranged daughter, Ted refuses to push: he does not blame her, he is respecting her boundaries rather than turning up at the house, and he says the ball is in her court. Keith says he will pray for reconciliation and would have Ted back on to talk about it if it comes; as of this recording it has not.
Pull quotes
"That's what I tell addicts and alcoholics: you're living on Groundhog Day, like the movie. The sooner you quit, you can end this whole cycle." — Ted Armstrong, on how thirty years pass inside the same day.
"It wants you to stay quiet. Your addiction, it's almost a living entity. And you'll do anything to protect it." — Ted Armstrong.
"I abandoned God. He didn't abandon me." — Ted Armstrong, on why his praying thinned out through the drinking years.
"It's like an atom bomb on a family. It tore my family to shreds." — Ted Armstrong, asked what the addiction did to the people around him.
"You don't know how much you love sleep until you can't sleep anymore." — Ted Armstrong, deep into twenty-two days of Suboxone withdrawal.
"Don't tell them the 10%. Tell them the freaking 100%." — Keith Vance, on what to say to the people who have shown they love you.
The hinge of the story: a seat belt Ted almost never wore would not release after his Jeep tipped over, and ratcheted tighter each time he reached for the knife in his console. He looked up and said, "God, stop it," and it clicked three more times. A volunteer fireman broke through the windshield to cut him out and told him, "man, that thing had you."
"My compulsion for alcohol, my constant obsessing of my next drink, that was gone." — Ted Armstrong, on being prayed for at the front of the church his father took him to.
"I never once came home from the bar and was proud of what I did. But when I get a good workout coming home from the gym, I'm in a great mood." — Ted Armstrong.
Ted's last phone call with his father, held to his father's ear on speaker: "Hey, Pops, it's me. I just want you to know how much I love you. And you're my hero." His father, struggling for every breath, answered, "love you," and was gone again five seconds later.
Scripture & context
- 1:01:00 Keith paraphrases Proverbs 24:16 — "a righteous man falls seven times, but that man gets up" — speaking to the listener who has tried to get sober, failed, and is ready to stop trying.
- 56:41 Asked directly, Ted says he thought about suicide "all the time" during that stretch and describes a specific method he considered on the grounds of the treatment centre. He credits being locked in, with staff watching him, for the fact that he is alive. This passage needs a content note if the page carries it.
Questions answered
- How did Ted meet his wife, Alma?
- Ted's daughter-in-law Carissa is related to Alma — Carissa's mother, Lucy, is Alma's aunt — and Alma saw a comment Ted had left that made Lucy laugh. What she found on his profile was his two-year sober anniversary post: a pizza box with "two years sober" written on it. She friend requested him and they began messaging, eventually talking about four hours a day. Ted says another relationship, especially one halfway around the world, was the last thing he was looking for. jump · 1:04
- What started Ted's addiction to painkillers?
- At about 20 or 21 he was logging alone in January when the top of a dead tree he had cut snapped off and hit him on the head. He was knocked unconscious and came to with the impression of his own face left in the ground, and the impact compressed three discs in his back. He and his doctor decided against surgery in favour of physical therapy and pain management, and he was prescribed Vicodin, then stronger Vicodin, then OxyContin, with Percocet and Darvocet along the way. jump · 24:16
- How did he hide his drinking at work?
- He kept the large screw-top cans from the white energy drinks he always drank, filled them with a beer he says had roughly three times the usual alcohol, and resealed the plastic covers so they looked unopened. He bought his supply at six in the morning after his wife left for work and threw every empty away, because as he puts it, returnables were his enemy. His wife could smell the alcohol on him but could not work out how he was doing it, because there was never any evidence at home. jump · 32:50
- Why does Ted warn people about Suboxone?
- He was put on it at his first treatment centre and stayed on it for seven years, and says he only later learned it was meant to be a course of about two months. In his experience it is a synthetic opioid that settles into the bone marrow, that was giving him a buzz he recognised, and that he found harder to come off than anything else he had taken. His advice to anyone entering treatment is to refuse Suboxone or Methadone and go through the withdrawals instead. This is his own experience and opinion rather than medical guidance. jump · 45:48
- How long did Ted go without sleep coming off Suboxone?
- Twenty-two days. Nurses kept checking on him through the night, and at one point staff discussed hospitalising him to induce sleep or putting him back on Suboxone so he could rest, which he refused. He describes hearing voices and feeling as though he were losing his mind. When he finally did sleep it was for two hours, and it took roughly six months to get back to six hours a night. jump · 52:02
- Was Ted really sober during the stretches when people thought he was?
- No, and he is emphatic about it. He could go one or two months without drinking, but he was on Suboxone the whole time, so an opioid was always in his system. Keith puts it back to him as the illusion of being sober — nothing to smell, so nothing to see from the outside — and Ted agrees. He says that is why his earlier attempts kept collapsing. jump · 1:04:49
- What was Ted's plan when he left the treatment centre in Indiana?
- He had it worked out before he left. He was waiting on a 401(k) cheque of around thirty to forty thousand dollars from the foundry that had fired him, and he intended to wait until his parents left for a day-long trip, leave his phone behind, and take a thirty-eight-dollar-a-night motel room next to a bar in Gould City in the Upper Peninsula. He says he was not planning to commit suicide; he was planning to disappear and drink until it was over, and he did not expect it to take more than a month or two. jump · 1:12:26
- What happened on the day of Ted's last drink?
- Within ten minutes of his parents leaving he bought two pints of vodka, drank one at Rex Beach, and then tipped his Jeep over at about five miles an hour at the bottom of their driveway. He had put on a seat belt he almost never wore, and it would not unlatch — it ratcheted tighter every time he reached for the knife in his console, and clicked three more times after he looked up and said, "God, stop it." A volunteer fireman had to break through the windshield to cut him out. A night in jail, a second arrest and one more pint later, he stopped drinking for good. jump · 1:17:42
- When did the compulsion to drink leave him?
- The morning after he told his father the whole truth for the first time, the two of them went to church together, and Ted went forward when the pastor asked whether anyone needed prayer. He describes the pastor anointing his head with oil and something like electricity starting at his feet and running up through him while he was prayed for, and says his father saw it and knew right then that he had changed. He says his constant obsessing over the next drink was gone from that point, though the Suboxone withdrawals and the rebuilding took far longer. jump · 1:36:11
- Where does Ted's relationship with his daughter stand?
- He has not spoken to or seen Lily in almost eight years. He says she wants nothing to do with him, that she has her reasons, and that he does not blame her one bit — she deserved a good dad and did not get one. Rather than showing up unannounced he is respecting her boundaries and says the ball is in her court. He is proud of what she has achieved, says he would love the chance to show her the sober version of himself, and adds that if it never happens he has accepted that too, as long as she knows he loves her and is sorry. jump · 2:05:18
Helpful links
other
- Choices treatment center, Indiana The holistic, medication-free centre Ted names as the place he finally came off Suboxone; Keith asks Michael to find a link for it, but no web address is given on mic.
- Alcoholics Anonymous The daily meetings Ted attended under court order and kept attending afterwards, and where his feelings came back.
- Challenge Fitness, Charlevoix The gym Ted joined at 165 pounds after treatment, whose members he came to call his gym family.
- Vance Ranch The Vance family's 100-acre ranch in Henry County with a 6,000 square foot barn, read as the mid-episode sponsor spot.
ministry
- Celebrate Church The country church Ted's father took him to the morning after he told the truth, where he went forward for prayer.
Full transcript
Intro voiceover: I learned the hard way, nothing's overnight, some days you lose, some days you survive. Still Strong, even moving slow, every step counts more than you know. I found gold in the everyday, showing up and staying brave. Still Strong.
Keith Vance: Ted Armstrong. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you. Ted, we're going to talk about the theme of addiction, the cycle of addiction. What does recovery look like? That's the reason why you're here. But before we dig into that, I'm going to give you an introduction. Okay. Ted Armstrong, born in Michigan. Mm-hmm. You've been married to your wife, Alma, for two years. Yep. That's an interesting story. Yeah. How did you meet her?
Ted Armstrong: My daughter-in-law, my older son, Alec, his wife, Carissa, she's half Filipino. You know, her mother is, you know, from the Philippines. And her mother is, Alma's actually related. Her, Carissa's mother is Alma's cousin or second cousin or something like that. And, no, aunt. And so she saw a comment that I did for Carissa's mother on Facebook. And I got Carissa's mother, Lucy, to laugh. And Alma saw that. And then she kind of hit my profile. And then she, you know, messaged, or she friend requested me. And, you know, I accepted it because I just, I saw she was related to Lucy. And then she messaged me. And the last thing I was looking for was getting into another relationship. Especially one halfway around the world. Oh, yeah, I know. But that's, I think that's what made it comfortable. And it turned into just, you know, where we were talking, you know, four hours a day. Wow. You know, back and forth. And it was amazing. You know, I was pretty much done with, you know. Relationships. The thought of a relationship, you know. I was happy. I was sober. And I was two years sober when I met her. That's the one she saw. It was my two-year anniversary. I had a pizza box. And I wrote two years sober on it. And I held it up. And that was my post on Facebook. And so she saw that and just thought I looked like a nice guy. I've watched
Keith Vance: your relationship through Facebook. And I didn't know your whole story. But just peeping in and seeing a little, trying to put the puzzle pieces together. She looked like she was healing to you. Yeah. She looks like a person that you need. Yeah. And even today, just being around her. She's therapy to you. And I can tell that. Yeah.
Ted Armstrong: Yeah. Yeah, she is. It's a work in progress. I mean, she's, you know, she misses her home at times. Yeah, I can imagine. But yeah, it kind of, all the pieces just kind of fell together. You know, it's amazing the blessings you get when you start doing the right thing, you know, and live honestly. So let me ask
Keith Vance: you a question. Since we're talking, you've been married to her for two years. She was born and raised in the Philippines. You pulled that poor girl to the freaking coldest place in the United States, Michigan. She's never seen snow, you know what I mean? But that's all she's wanted is snow.
Ted Armstrong: What was her first experience like in the snow? Oh, she was like a little kid. I mean, she does have a childish spirit to her. And it gets excited. And she's always, it's so hot there in the Philippines. You know, they would see pictures of the snow and they would just, you know, fantasize about it. And that was her biggest dream was to do a snow angel. And it was two years ago. It was in the 60s when we went to go get her from the airport. But then we had a freak snowstorm on the way to Alex's house in Carissa's. And there was like probably three or four inches of snow on the ground. And she was just beside herself. And she jumped around the lawn to the snow angel. I put it on Facebook. Yeah. And, you know, she was just all giddy. She still loves the snow, but I. Give her time. Yeah. That's what I said. I said, that'll fade.
Keith Vance: Yeah. Ted, you have three children. I've met you two boys. We were up there in Michigan. And actually, it was for your birthday. I think it was for your birthday. Oh, that's right. We got together. I met you two sons. Yeah. Yeah. We went to that restaurant at Chop House. Yeah. And. One of your boys, I text him once every few months. Yeah. He's a father, and he and I have a little connection there. But you've got some good boys. You have a daughter, Lily, that I haven't met yet. Yeah. You have two grandchildren. Yes,
Ted Armstrong: Meadow and Archer. What's that like? Oh, it's awesome. It's the best. Yeah. Meadow, you know, she just started saying her first words, and her first word was Papa. Nice. And it's because me and Archer, you know, as soon as I get there, Archer's like, Papa, Papa. And the last time when I left, Meadow went up to my son and goes, Papa. Wow. But then, of course, Jake couldn't get her to say it when I was there. But as soon as I would leave, she would say it. And then she finally said it this last time that I saw her, you know. You know, she came up, Papa. Papa, you know,
Keith Vance: the best way I can describe being a grandfather is being a father. It's a lot of responsibility and stress. And I felt that stress. Like, I felt this weight that I got to carry. I'm trying to, okay. Like, I felt this weight of responsibility. Being a grandfather, I feel no responsibility. I feel no stress. I just want to be buddies. I just want to be those. Like, it's not my responsibility to raise them. It's not my responsibility to get after them. It's just my responsibility. I'm just there to love them. It's a new role for me to love them and not have to worry about the stuff they're doing wrong. Ain't my job. Ain't my problem. And now it's the fun stuff, you know. It's just all the good stuff, man. Yeah.
Ted Armstrong: Are you having that same experience? Oh, yeah, exactly. Yeah, and if Archer starts acting up, you know, I'll just stand back and let his dad or mom take care of it. It's nice. Yeah, it is really nice. And it's neat to be almost like their hero, you know. You show up there and they can't be happier to see you, you know. And, you know, Archer will call me five, ten minutes before I get there. Like, where are you, Papa? You know, and he'll just stand by the window waiting. And, yeah, that's, you can't describe how awesome that is.
Keith Vance: Using that word hero, that's good. Because children, they show, especially when they're young ages, you know, my oldest grand, well, my oldest one is, he's 13. But the other ones are, like, three. Your oldest grandkid's 13? Yeah, Michael's my step-grand, my step-granddaughter, yeah. Yeah, Alexis, yeah. Yeah, and she's special. We're going to have her on the podcast next month. She's special. But, you know, kids are innocent, brother. And just unconditional love. And I experience the same thing. My grandkids live right around me. They see me taking the trash out the road. And if they're outside,
Intro voiceover: Papa, Papa. You know what I mean? It's
Keith Vance: unconditional love, man. Yeah. And I am loving it. Yeah. Your hobbies? Hiking, motorcycles. I like that, brother. Yeah. Yeah, we'll have to do some riding. And the gym. Yeah. So where
Ted Armstrong: do you hike? There's a couple different... There's a beach in Ellsworth called Rex Beach, and it has just miles of trails, hiking trails. And Alma just loves going out there. Good. You know, it's chilly because it's right on Lake Michigan. So, you know, it'll go into the woods, come back by the beach, go back into the woods. But you get that cold breeze off Lake Michigan. And in the later summer, it gets really nice. But Alma's all about that, too. You know, the outdoors and doing things. You know, she hates just being inside, cooped up.
Keith Vance: So... There's something therapeutic about a connection to nature. Yeah. Getting outside, getting some sunlight, some vitamin D. Oh, yeah. Like, getting out there, it's good.
Ted Armstrong: Yeah. Yeah. It clears the mind. See God's creations. Yeah. I mean, because nobody creates like he does in the fall. You know, the colors and leaves all... You know, you guys don't get that here, but... No. But the leaves, you know, they all turn red and all fall. And Alma was doing snow angels in the leaves out there. And just... And she could see them, you know, they're falling out of the trees. And that was all brand new to her. You know, it was like magical. So... Something else I wanted to say, though, about our relationship. It was so funny because when people don't know, they make assumptions. And I had everybody at my work, you know, and other people from AA. And they thought she was like a mail-order bride. Oh. You know, they were going like, oh, man, Ted got a mail-order bride. You know, he must be lonely. And it was so funny because I just let them think that, you know. Good for you. And finally, I just, you know, told them the truth. No, it just... It happened, you know, when I least expected it. And, you know, I didn't even think it was something I needed. But after a while, it was just, it was, it was nice. I like what you
Keith Vance: said, that you just let them think it. Because, listen, if you don't care enough to take the time to ask me, then I don't care enough to tell you. Yeah, yeah. So think what you want.
Ted Armstrong: Yeah. I like that. And people, they draw their own conclusion and make assumptions. Without even asking. Yeah, without asking. And, you know, probably 60% of the time they're wrong. But they've already made up their mind, you know, and told other people. And before you know it, everybody's thinking, oh, Ted got a mail-order bride.
Keith Vance: You got a motorcycle recently. What are you riding? It's a 09 Electric Glide Ultra. How many miles have you put on that thing so far? 12,000.
Ted Armstrong: In what amount of time? In one summer.
Keith Vance: Yeah. That's some hard riding, brother.
Ted Armstrong: It's so, I missed it. I haven't had a bike since I was probably 20, 22. You know? It's hard to believe I'm going to be 62 in June. And so it was almost like learning over again. At first, I was kind of afraid of it, you know? Yeah. Because it was, you know, I had a Virago 920 and a Maxim 1100 before Yamaha's. And this is so much heavier. But now, now I'm comfortable on it, you know? And it's just, you know that feeling. Just, you know, when I know I rode my bike to work, I can hardly wait to get off work just so I can get on my bike to ride home at night, you know, when there's nobody on the road and I can crank my stereo. Yeah. It's just, you know, God's definitely blessed me since I got sober. I bought a, and
Keith Vance: I wasn't even going to do it. I bought a road glide for my 50th birthday. Sitting in the house, minding my own business, having lunch. My son Thomas comes in the house. Hey, Dad, what are you doing for your birthday? He's like, you're looking at it. He's like, Dad, come on. You got to buy yourself something. Let's go. So he's looking up Corvettes. I mean, he's looking at the local Chevy dealership. He's like, he's like. Bass boats. I said, you know what? I said, hop in the truck. I said, you drive, I'll ride. Like, wherever we go is where we'll go. So we went to the Harley dealership. And so I bought one. I wasn't looking for it, but I bought one. But I was, again, the wind in your face. Connecting with my wife and just taking a scenic route and just, it's therapy. It's therapy. So I'll take you up on that. Maybe when the leaves are falling up in Michigan, up where you're at. I'll trailer my bike up there. We can go for a ride or something. Oh,
Ted Armstrong: you would love it. I would. Let's do it. Yeah. We'll go across Mackinac Bridge. Let's do it. Yeah. Something's great. When you say you're going to do something, I believe you.
Keith Vance: You know. The problem is we get busy. So that's why I got to say, let's do it. So that you don't forget because I'll forget. Right. Let's do it. Yeah. Yep. Your last hobby is the gym. I know that's a special one for you. So what's a typical workout look like for you?
Ted Armstrong: Well, you know, I like to mix it up, but I always try to group muscle. You know, I group two muscle groups. Full school. So I'll do chest, shoulders, or chest, triceps, and back and bys. I do throw legs in there. Everybody hassles me about legs, but I should do them more often. That's for sure. Autumn at the gym, she always is messing with me. They can set it legs more. So, but that's when you said you had a road glide. My buddy, Bruce, he's got a road glide. I mean, a road, what is it again? There's a street glide and road glide. Yeah. He has a road glide. Yeah. Yeah. Street glide, the fairing turns with it, and the other one, stationary. Stationary, yeah. Yeah. And
Keith Vance: the road glide, it's a little longer. The street glide's a little closer to you. Right.
Ted Armstrong: It's a little longer. They are. That's definitely, you know, I'm going to probably keep this bike for four or five years, but I'll probably, that'll be my next one, is road glide. Good.
Keith Vance: Your career, you work at a cement plant that makes precast, like, pavers for landscaping, fire pits, and stuff like that. Yeah. And I think, if I heard you right, you work a third shift. Yeah, second shift. Second shift.
Ted Armstrong: Yeah. I go in at around 3.30, and usually we're out by one. In the morning? Yeah.
Keith Vance: You're seven and a half years sober. Mm-hmm. That's the reason why you're here. We're going to get into that. And you are 62 years old in June. Right. Where did the time go? Don't
Ted Armstrong: say that too loud. I don't know. It's amazing. It's amazing. I can't even believe I'm this old. Remember back when we thought 30 was old? Yes. Yeah. What I'd do to be 30 now. Yeah, you got some hard miles
Keith Vance: on you. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, Ted, everybody that comes on the podcast, I'm about to get emotional over this one. Wow, this one hit me.
Keith Vance: Everybody that comes on the podcast gets a Still Strong hat. These are Richard's ones, 112s. My kids tell me they're the best. They're the best. But getting ready to hear your story, this is an honor for me to have you wear this. And this emotion just hit me out of nowhere. But we're going to get into it, brother. Awesome. I expect to see that on you every time I see you on Facebook in the gym.
Ted Armstrong: Yeah, in the gym.
Keith Vance: And when it gets all sweated out, text me and I'll send you another one. All right? That is awesome, Keith. Thank you. You got it. That's the new design, too. Man. That's the new design. Yeah, I like it. There we go. All right, brother. Cover up the flat top. All right, brother. Let's get into it. What was life like for you growing up as a kid? What was life like for you growing
Ted Armstrong: up? I had a really fun childhood. I mean, we lived on Stony Lake and Oxford. And those were, like, some of the best years I like to think about, you know. You know, we just played. You know, video games weren't invented yet. And, I mean, outside was everything to us. I don't know if you remember, but when your parents called you to come in the house, it was like, you know, pulling teeth. And nowadays, parents can't get their kids to put the cell phone down, you know. I kind of feel bad for the kids nowadays because they miss out on all those, you know. My bike was my life, you know, my pedal bike. And we'd be gone for six, seven hours, you know, and come home just starving and wolfing down the food and, you know, getting ready to do it all over again the next day. The
Keith Vance: hardest thing was when mom yelled, kids, come home. The second hardest thing was when she says, get in the bathtub. Yeah, yeah.
Ted Armstrong: Yeah, and you knew you were, you know, when you get out of the bathtub and it's black, you knew you had a good day. So you had a good childhood. Yeah, I did. My dad, yeah. My dad was a policeman for Oakland County. And so he was a strict, you know, a strict dad. And, you know, like I said, that's why I didn't, during high school, I never even partied. You know, I had buddies that smoked pot and drank and partied. And, you know, having a dad that was a cop, you know, nobody would really want me to go to their parties because they were afraid, you know, I would say something or they would, you know, bring the law into it. And so, yeah, I didn't even really start doing any, you know, and I was way against partying and preaching. I was preaching about, you know, not doing it. And then after I graduated, you know, and got my freedom, it was like that sucked me right in. So when was that, about
Keith Vance: 18 years old? Yeah. Okay. So what was that transition like? Like you're out of the house, you got some freedom.
Ted Armstrong: Right. Well, and what's funny is the drinking age changed from 18 to 21 in Michigan right when I graduated, before I graduated. And so me and a friend of mine, we got motorcycles and we took off to Florida because drinking age was still only 18 in Florida. Oh, really? Yeah. And we lived in Jupiter and, and that's, you know, being, not having anybody tell me what to do. And, and, you know, that's pretty much what I knew. I, I, I almost knew within months of being there that, that drinking was going to be a problem for me. I think God put that in my head, but I just didn't listen, you know, because, because me and Pat, he's, he died here last year, but he had quite a drinking problem too. And, uh, you know, it's just what we could do if we could do things over again, you know, I would, I would change that in the heartbeat. I have a similar
Keith Vance: story. My, um, I graduated high school. My, I was always working during the summers and stuff. My, I already had my, I know where I'm going in life, right? I'm going to work construction and I'm going to marry my girlfriend. I'm going to start my family. My dad, um, had different plans. He's like, no, I want you to go to college. So he said, Hey, give me a year. He said, give me a year. So I went to a really strict college in Greenville, South Carolina that everybody knows about. If you're in that. loop and um i had a roommate i had a roommate that got there before me and he had his shorts laid out on the uh top bunk and his shorts said why drink and drive when you can smoke and fly it's like hmm well at least i got a fun one at least i got a fun roommate i can do some stuff with and we did yeah we got involved in all kinds of stuff right i ended up getting get i ended up getting kicked out of school and i was working in construction every weekend up there so when i got kicked out that guy had got kicked out the semester before me he was living on campus so i moved in with him and a bunch of guys and his sister and i was working construction and um everybody was doing everybody's drinking everybody's doing whatever and so was i and i remember thinking to myself okay this is one of those forks in the road yeah if i go this way if i go this way it may be fun but i know it's not going to end well for me right and i remember having that conscious decision and i said you know it's safer for me to go back home and i made the decision to go home come back to florida so what you're talking about is young men here you are in florida and you remember thinking hey this is going to be a problem i remember having that same thought yeah i remember having that same thought
Ted Armstrong: yeah because you know your your dad was strict too you know and um um yeah it was just like once you had that freedom then you know it was like my values got thrown out the window you know and uh you know drinking to me it just you know at first i just loved it you know they you know just the buzz for some reason so people that aren't don't have an addiction problem or aren't alcoholics you can't explain it to them uh but once an alcoholic you know you it could be like dormant it's like cancer you know it's dormant until something gets it started and so you know if i never would have started drinking i wouldn't have been a become an alcoholic but it was like as soon as i started i knew you know this is that man this is for me and then then it just got out of control you know and it it gets to where it owns you you know i i even told everybody i said i'm a slave to this you know it pretty much tells me what to do you know and um and you connected those dots early on when you're 18 yeah i i knew it i just didn't listen to it you know and uh i was great at hiding how bad the problem was for a long time you know what
Keith Vance: what were some of the okay so you said you knew this was going to be a problem what were some of the lies you told yourself that i could handle it you know the one
Ted Armstrong: yeah i can quit whenever i want exactly you know and and i i pray you know i'm i've always been religious and believe in god and but my prayers got you know less and less because i knew i was doing what he didn't want me to do oh and uh and so you know you know god sees everything and you know so you just quit kind of talking to him because you hope you know maybe he'll just over overlook you but but uh but yeah you just you try to fool yourself even though you know it's a problem you're you know we're men we think we can handle it you know nothing can control me i control the situation it doesn't control me and and that couldn't be farther from the truth alcohol had me and uh there was no getting out of it
Keith Vance: there was uh a time when things escalated for you you told me you were about 20 years old or so you were in the woods doing some logging can we make that transition yeah
Ted Armstrong: yeah yeah i was um um i was out i was actually helping a crew build a big huge log home and uh and he just bought a bunch of property off my parents actually and uh like 400 acres and so i was logging out there and and because i was selling firewood and stuff on the side and i was it was in january i believe it was cold and there was a bunch of snow on the ground and i went out in the front end loader with my chainsaw and and but all by myself and that's something you never do when you're logging is be by yourself but i cut down a pretty big dead tree and the top i heard it as soon as as soon as that tree started fall and I heard a big snap and the top of the tree fell off, you know, busted off and it came down and hit me right in the top of the head. And I remember when I heard that snap, I threw my chainsaw because it was running full bore. And so I didn't want to, you know, get caught up in my chainsaw, but I don't know how long I was unconscious, but when I came to my face melted all the way down to the ground. And so when I came to and got out, you could see a perfect, you know, impression of my face with my eyes closed. And, but it, it compressed a bunch of discs in my back and, and it was, it was painful, but that's when I got introduced to
Crosstalk: painkillers. So let's, um,
Keith Vance: hold on a minute, we got a little, we got an alarm or something going on. No,
Crosstalk: that's my phone out there.
Ted Armstrong: Just mute it. No, no, just, I can put it on silent. Man, you really
Keith Vance: messed that one up. Oh yeah. We don't edit anything. I'll see. Yeah. I'll see who, uh, who was calling. Yeah. We're going to see who called you. Say you're on the podcast now. All good. Yeah. All right. All right. So, um, I want to be real careful here because this is, this is real life. This is where life hits. So you're, you're doing a job. So you were introduced to alcohol. It has got a hold of you. Um, but your addiction escalates in a circumstance that you didn't ask for. Right. Okay. You weren't like the, the, what we're getting ready to talk about. Nobody says, Oh, I want to, I want to set out to be an addict. Yeah. I want to set out to be an addict for the next 20 years and destroy everything in my life. Exactly. Things happen in our life. Like I'm out working. I cut a tree. It hits me in the top of the head, messes my back all up and I get introduced to pain pills. Okay. So I want to go real slow here. I want it every little layer of this thing, because this is where we live. This is, this is scary. I know a lot of people are addicted to pain pills. Yeah. So tell your story, take your time and just let's walk through it from the beginning. Yeah. What was
Ted Armstrong: wrong with your back? It compressed. They were going to do surgery on my neck, but it compressed three of my discs. And I, I mean, I couldn't, you know, I couldn't even get out of bed, you know, and the pain was just nonstop. And, you know, the, after they did the x-ray and everything before I left, you know, he, you know, that was before painkillers were, you know, I, you know, they weren't really a problem back then. Now everybody knows about them. But, uh, I remember when I first got home and they gave me a shot of morphine or something the first night. But I remember the first night that I got home and, and took a couple. I didn't, actually, I didn't like the feeling. I was like, I don't like this at all. You know, I'd rather just drink. And, uh, but then I, then I fell in love with the feeling and, uh, what, you know, what he would prescribe for a month because we decided to go against surgery and just try to do a physical therapy and pain management. And, and, uh, and I was milking it for all it was worth, you know, uh, cause I knew how much I love these painkillers. I just loved the feeling. And, uh. How old were you at this time? I was probably 20, 21.
Keith Vance: Okay. So here's what I want to understand. Here's what I want to like hit. You're 20, 21, 20 or 21 when this started. You're 62 right now. Right. Right. And you've only, you've been sober for seven and a half years. So what happened back then was a 30 some odd year. Yeah. 30 some odd year extended period of time. It's scary. Oh, it's scary. Yeah.
Ted Armstrong: That's what I tell addicts and, and alcoholics is you're living in, on Groundhog Day, like the movie. You know, the sooner you quit, you can end this whole cycle. And I get, now I understand the frustration my family and friends had with me because, you know, they're, they could see from the outside, you know, looking in, they could say, can't you see what you're doing to yourself? But you don't, you know, all you think about it. How does that next buzz, you know, numbing the pain, you know, getting that feeling. What was prescribed you? At first it was Vicodins and they, then they upped it to stronger Vicodins and Oxycontins. And I've done every painkiller there is, you know, Percocet, Darvacet. There's, you know. Every one of them I abused, you know, and after a month or two being on these and calling the doctor saying, oh, these ones aren't working. I'm just going to throw them away. And he goes, oh, well, I'll buy it. I'll get you a different script, a stronger one. And I would say, well, do you want me to bring this old script into you? And it would be empty, but I would just be bluffing. And he'd say, no, you know, you can just set those aside or throw them away and I'll get you something new. So, you know, I turned it, drugs and alcohol turned me into a compulsive liar. And I used to hate liars, but I became like a good one. And it was bad because I was using doctors, dentists, anybody I could to maintain my addiction. That was the only thing important to me. You know, I threw away my humanity pretty much. Okay. So you said
Keith Vance: you turned into a good liar. So what were the things you'd lie about? Like, what were those? Like, I want to, like, let's, let's go through it. Because for two things, one, if someone's an addict and they're in denial, but you're laying out, I would lie about this, this, this, this. That person can identify with that and say, oh, maybe it'll shit, maybe it'll flip their brain. Right. But also for the person on the other side, like an enabling parent who views their kid as, my kid would never lie. Right. But you're listing these. It has, there's benefit on both sides. And that's why I want to take my time while I got you here because I don't know this world. You do. I don't want you to speak to it to help on both sides. Right. So the lies.
Ted Armstrong: It was, it was always about my addiction. I mean, you, you're, it's weird. It's like, it's, it takes on its own form. You know, I, I truly think my addiction was a demon and I
Crosstalk: protected him with everything, you know,
Crosstalk: it was dark days.
Ted Armstrong: Yeah. I, I would lie about, you know, cause people by then knew I had a drinking problem and I convinced a lot of people that I quit and I didn't quit. I was just hiding it, you know? And, uh, and then I got so bad, you know, I was sneaking in drinks to my work and, you know, How would you do that? I, I don't want to give anybody the wrong idea, but, um, that's how bad I was. If I went three, four hours without a drink in me or a painkiller, you know, I would start getting the shakes. I'd start sweating profusely and couldn't eat. Couldn't, you know, I, they completely had control over me. And, uh, I, I used to drink those white monsters all the time, energy drinks within the big ones with the screw on lid. And they have that plastic cover that, you know, seals them. Um, and I had a bunch of empties of those, like a whole garbage bag full in my garage. And that hit me, man, I can just open these for beer. You know, I would get those Natty Daddy beers because they had like three times the alcohol, the regular beer does. And I would fill those up. And one of those big cans, Natty Daddy fit perfect in Big Monster. And then I would re, you know, put the lid down and I would reseal it, you know, with that plastic. And they would, it would look just like one that wasn't opened. And I was, I would take them into work. I would, I'd be drinking them all day. And people had no clue, you know, my ex-wife, my, that she was my wife at the time. She knew I was drinking because she could smell it on me. And I, but I'd deny, deny. And, but she couldn't figure it out because there was no empties. Well, I would get up at six in the morning, go to the party store. She was at, you know, left for work, get my whole supply. I would transfer it all over into the white monsters, throw all the empties away. Cause returnables were my enemy. You know, I didn't want anybody to find evidence. As part of, you know, being a cop son, I learned how to, how to, you know, hide the evidence, you know. And, but, you know, I thought in, in my head at the time, I think, wow, I'm really getting away with something. But man, who was I fooling? You know, I was prolonging
Crosstalk: agony.
Crosstalk: Sorry. No, you're good. Thank you. And that was
Keith Vance: real practical help. Were there some other lies that looking back that might help people? Just,
Ted Armstrong: uh, if you think you have a problem, you have a problem. And, uh, God, what I would do to, to, if I would have listened, you know, listen to that voice, you know. because, you know, once it gets a hold of you, it's almost too late. But if you can catch it before it gets a hold of you, you know, like I said, if I never started, I never would have had a problem, you know. But once I started and once things got that bad, and then you get to a point where you don't think it's possible, you know, and that's your addiction because it doesn't want to leave, you know, its ultimate goal is to kill you.
Crosstalk: So did you ever think about or battle within your mind about just asking somebody for help? Yeah.
Crosstalk: You know how we
Ted Armstrong: are. We think we can fix ourselves, you know, and I thought that showed weakness, you know. And, you know, like, look at me. I can't even control what I drink.
Keith Vance: And I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I would imagine that there would be shame there, like not one maybe, no, because of the shame. Exactly.
Ted Armstrong: Unimaginable. Yeah. Like you said, nobody's proud of being an alcoholic or an addict. It's not something you brag about, you know. I remember kids in high school bragging about how much they could drink. I was embarrassed with how much I could drink.
Crosstalk: So looking back,
Keith Vance: looking back, do you wish you would have called out for help with someone? Yeah. Because that's the thing about addictions is they're shameful. We don't want people to know. We hide it. Once we realize it's got bondage over us, I think we tried to hide it. And there's something therapeutic. There's something healthy about just ripping the freaking band-aid off the thing and exposing it to the world. You know what I mean? Because if it keeps it quiet, if it keeps you down.
Ted Armstrong: Right. And that's what it wants. It wants you to stay quiet. Your addiction, it's almost a living entity. And you'll do anything to protect it, you know. And the shame is unreal. Like I told you in the truck, you know, I couldn't look at anybody in the face, you know. I would go into the party store at 6 in the morning shaking like a leaf. And I remember one time there was an elderly lady. She was probably in her 90s. And she was in front of me, and she was on a walker. And she told the cashier guy, get him first. He needs it more than me, you know. And, you know, I could barely sign my name. That was when you have to sign your name with your debit card. And it would just look like scribble because my hands were shaking so bad. You know, and this lady felt sorry for me. And I was like, you
Keith Vance: know. So we talked about the lies. We just stumbled across the shame. Let's stay here for a minute. What did that shame? Let's hit the bottom layer. What were the layers of shame? What did that shame feel like? It just gets worse and worse.
Ted Armstrong: And, you know, you know that you're embarrassing your family. You know, I was a terrible father, you know. And, I mean, you know, the only thing that mattered to me was protecting my lie and keep living in addiction. Like what I said to you about Groundhog's Day, the guys that have a problem now, they have no idea that you could wake up one day and say, 30 years have passed. Wow. You know. And you're still doing the
Crosstalk: same damn thing.
Crosstalk: Sorry. No. But,
Ted Armstrong: yeah, the shame. I don't miss the shame at all and the lies. I, you know, I'm like you. Nobody likes to be lied to. And I have no faith in a liar. I can't stand a liar. And I became one of the best. And, you know. So you hated yourself. Yeah. So you hated yourself. Because you hate liars and you're a liar. So
Keith Vance: you're just swimming in shame and lies. Right. I got a mental picture of that just now. It gets
Ted Armstrong: unbearable, Keith. I mean, you know, you get. But that's why you just keep drinking. Numb those thoughts. You know. Don't deal with it. Keep it buried.
Keith Vance: So it's a cycle. The thing that's killing you is the thing you keep going back to, to bury the pain and emotion that's bringing out in you. You good? Yep. I'm good.
Ted Armstrong: Yeah. It's a terrible cycle. And it's. And I, honest to God, didn't think that I. That, you know, I abandoned God. He didn't abandon me. I. Because I was ashamed, you know. And, you know. Here, God made me perfect, and I screwed it all up. In your mind. Yeah.
Crosstalk: You became a liar. You're wrapped up
Keith Vance: in a cycle of shame. We talked about what shame does. Because when you're in that state, and here you are, you're a husband and you're a father. Your kids are growing up right underneath your nose. And you are to be, like, your responsibility to them is not just to feed them. You're a provider. You're a protector. You're to speak life. You're supposed to guide them in this world. Like, that's what a dad is supposed to do. Yep. He says, use his example to guide and to train and to use his example to speak into their life. Yeah. And you can't do that because... I failed miserably at that. Because you're wrapped up in shame. Yeah. So it's not just affecting you. It's affecting everyone around you. Let's talk to that. It's like an atom
Ted Armstrong: bomb on a family. It tore my family to shreds, you know. Let's talk about that. So we
Keith Vance: talked about how you're feeling it and coping with it. How is it affecting the ones you love? Let's talk about that for a while.
Ted Armstrong: I mean, even my boys, and I told you my one son, he had a little stint with addiction. And, you know, thankfully, thank God he nipped it in the bud before it got too bad. You know, it was bad for like a year or two. And he got it together. And, I mean, he's living a great life now. Very successful. Both my boys are. But Lily, she was there during the worst two years. You know, those last two years were just hell on earth. And, you know, I was never violent or anything like that. But, you know, you're supposed to respect your dad. And she knew I was a liar. She knew, you know, that I was lying completely to her, her mom. You know, because I was just deny, deny, deny, you know, and catch me. And they couldn't catch me. They didn't know how I was getting away with it. But they knew, you know. And Lily, I felt, you know, instead of seeing her dad go to work every day, I was missing work like crazy. Because I was either too drunk or I was too hungover. And so I would always be just on the couch watching TV waiting for her to go to school so I could start pounding again. And that, you know, that took a toll on Lily. And that's, you know, I told you, I haven't talked to Lily or seen her in almost eight years. You know, haven't
Crosstalk: heard her voice, nothing.
Crosstalk: And I don't blame her one bit.
Crosstalk: Oh, man.
Ted Armstrong: Sorry about the tassies. I usually got it together. But that, you know, like you said, you're supposed to be, you know, somebody they look up to, you know. And instead, I was like somebody that you should avoid,
Crosstalk: you know.
Crosstalk: But, you know, what I would give to do things over again.
Ted Armstrong: But unless somebody can figure out
Crosstalk: how
Keith Vance: to do that, you know. No, you can't. There are no do-overs. No. But the next best thing is what's happening right here. Right. This is the next best thing. Is someone that's gone 30 years in the cycle of addiction. And everything that we're talking about. Not only how it affected you, but the ones you love. So that you can be a. A blaring. Flashing warning sign. That, hey, if you keep going this way, there's a train wreck up the road. Stop. Stop. You are a caution. Stop. Right. So this is the next best thing. Right. It is. And not only that, it's a caution. But it's also hope. Mm-hmm. Hey, you know, it took me 30 years. But I'm sober today, brother. Right. There's hope. There's hope. There's always opportunity for reconciliation. Like, oh, there's, as long as there's breath, there's hope. Yep, there is. Okay, so there's many layers and dynamics to this story. Let's talk about the. the cycle that we talked about yesterday. So you're in pain. You got addicted to pain meds. You're prescribed the pain. I had a question we can talk about now. You're prescribed the pain meds. You became addicted to them. You found out you were addicted to them. You're trying to get off of them. And I don't want to tell your story, but when you would get off of them, you would have insomnia. So then you would just want to sleep. So you would drink to sleep. So there was this cycle. So I want to talk about that cycle next. We'll stay here for a while. But I also want to ask you, your freaking doctor, man. Yeah.
Keith Vance: Your doctor. Were there no warning signs that he said, hey, Ted, let's take another route here. Where's there?
Ted Armstrong: There are some doctors that actually do care, but there's a lot of doctors out there that they know exactly what this stuff is. And they keep inventing stronger pain pills when they know they've had nothing but problems with their earlier ones. You know, like I told you, they invented OxyContin to get people off Vicodin. And OxyContin ended up being 10 times worse than Vicodin. And, you know, and then after the millions of people dying on OxyContin, you know, they develop fentanyl. You know, it's like, why do you go, why just, you know, leave these opioids alone and figure out something else? But that's why I said it. It's like a cash business, man. They, that, if they can get you legally addicted to something and you're paying them and not a drug dealer, you know, they, and Suboxone, what they prescribed me at my first treatment center, and you're only supposed, I found out this later, but you're only supposed to be on that, a total of maybe two months. And I was prescribed it for seven years. And when I went into treatment this last time at a total holistic place that didn't believe in any medication at all. And they pretty much locked you up because they, they knew as soon as they were like, you were on Suboxone, you've been on Suboxone for seven years. And they're the one lady's rolling her eyes. And I was like, I said, it's just an opioid blocker. And, but I knew deep down inside that it was giving me a buzz, you know, and, and I was finishing it, you know, early and withdrawing like crazy and drinking while I, until my next script would get in, you know, they would give me enough for a month and I'd have it gone in 20 days. And then I'd be freaking out because, oh man, I got 10 days that I got, you know, and that's when I would drink. I'd go on a bender for, you know, 10 days. And before, you know what, I'm trying to clean myself up, make it to my doctor's appointment, get my next script. And he knew what he was doing. They, you know, they, when, when I was prescribed Suboxone, it's like, that's one point I wanted to make with you guys. Anybody watching this, if you're battling with addiction and you're bad enough and you go into treatment, do not get on any Suboxone, Methadone. All that is, it gets you addicted to something else and it's stronger. getting off Suboxone is harder to get off than heroin and it stays in your system. It gets in your bone marrow. Took me six months of withdrawals. It's the worst in the world. I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy, the withdrawals that I had from getting off Suboxone. I'm
Keith Vance: going to follow your lead here. I asked you a question. We kind of got off, but I want to stay here. I want to stay here. I feel like this is meant to be. No, no, no. I feel like it's meant to be. The withdrawals from Suboxone. What does that look, what did that look like?
Ted Armstrong: Oh, it, it, it was terrible. I mean, it was, I've had withdrawals from other pain meds, but this was, nothing came close to it. You don't know how much you love sleep until you can't sleep anymore. And, and it was like, my brain forgot how. And I went, after like seven days, my first seven days in detox, you know, I asked the doctor, you know, the nurse and me and her became friends. And I said, man, it's been seven days. I haven't had a wink of sleep. I said, I can't even, I'm not even talking five minutes. I can't sleep. And then she told me, she said, Ted, you, this is withdrawal symptoms from Suboxone. And she said, that's when she told me how bad it was. She's, she didn't want me to tell the doctors that she told me this, but she said that stuff is, you know, made by the devil, you know, that whoever invented that, it, it gets, gets in your bone marrow. And, and I ended up the one counselor that he said he was on it for a year. And I trust the counselors that were former addicts more than I trust any, you know, a doctor with the book smarts because they'd been there. They know what I'm going through. And, and this guy was a former addict and he told me he, he, I was on it for a year, and he said, I don't want to scare you, but I didn't sleep for 18 days. Are you kidding me? And that was when I was seven days, and I was like, 18 days? I can't take, you know, one more day of this. But for me, it was 22 days before I finally fell asleep. Okay, this is heavy.
Crosstalk: All right, so I'll make one comment.
Crosstalk: I want to make one comment, and I want to be careful how I make this comment.
Crosstalk: I want to make one comment. We go to our doctors when things aren't feeling right.
Keith Vance: They prescribe stuff. But at the end of the day, what I'm feeling right now is at the end of the day, I need to be my own advocate, not just to trust, because he has letters behind his name that whatever he's prescribing me is good for me. And I say that as carefully as possible, because someone who, you know, my son-in-law, he's, you know, diabetic. If he don't take his medication, he's going to die. So take what I'm saying, like, reasonably. Mm-hmm. But what you're saying is I just, the doctor says it, so I just blindly take it, and then I go down this pathway that you're on. So at the end of the day, just, like, real practical, like, talking to myself. I need to be my own advocate, do my own research, and maybe get a second opinion before I just start popping some pills that make me
Ted Armstrong: feel a certain way. Okay. Especially nowadays that you've got the computer, and you can actually look stuff up. We can look stuff up. We can ask somebody. Do your own
Keith Vance: homework, yeah. Okay.
Crosstalk: Now, I want to ask you,
Keith Vance: what, wow, man, what does it feel like to not be able to sleep for 22 freaking days? Oh, it was a nightmare.
Ted Armstrong: There would be, I would get a person that was a heroin addict for 15 years come in, and I would think, I would almost think, thank God, there's somebody that's going to feel what I'm feeling. And after a week, they were sleeping. And I was like, that's why I told the nurse, I was like, he was on heroin for years. And she said, what you were taking is, you know, the withdrawals are worse than heroin. But what I was trying to tell you before, when you're in addiction, and that's your biggest fear is we're withdrawals. And it's almost like they know that. So when I was prescribed Suboxone, they said, oh, it's an opioid blocker. That means, you know, if you take that, even if you take an opioid, your receptors are shut down, so you won't get that buzz. Well, it's just because the buzz that the Suboxone's giving you to me, it's, they know that you're desperate to not feel those withdrawals. So they give you something to, so you won't have withdrawals. And that ends up being worse than the, what you're trying to get off of. And do you think, if I could give any advice to somebody new going into treatment, just bite the bullet, go through your withdrawals. Do not take anything to cover them up. You know, God, God gave you those, gave you those withdrawals for a reason. You earned them, you know, pay your dues, get it over with. And, but putting a Band-Aid on something is just going to open up a whole new can of worms, you know?
Keith Vance: So I'm going to ask you again, what was it like to go 18 days or what was it? 22. With no sleep. Tell me what it was like. Oh, walk me through it. Walk me through day one, week one.
Ted Armstrong: Walk me through it. You, you're so desperate to sleep. You don't realize how much we love sleep and need sleep. And it was just, I would dread nighttime because at least during the day, I could go out, walk outside, do something. But nighttime, I knew I just hated it. And it seemed like it would take forever to get over before. And so I, I wouldn't even go to bed. Once I, once they moved me into out of detox and into the regular room with the, you know, 12 other guys, I would turn the TV and just sit there and watch TV. And, and I, I would have nurses all the time coming up to check and thinking I was sleeping. I'd say, Nope, not yet. You know, and, and they were even getting concerned. And at one point they were going to put me in the hospital and, and kind of like induce sleep or, or, you know, the one, one nurse said, well, maybe even if we just give you get, you know, they were thinking about giving me a suboxone just so I could sleep. And I'm like, no, man, I've gone 15 days. There's no way I'm going to put, to put that in my system again. And, uh, you honestly, you think you're losing your mind, you know, things aren't, you know, happen that aren't real. And, you know, you kind of feel like a schizophrenic or something, you know, because I heard voices and it was it was terrible. And then I thought once I did sleep, I thought, man, I'll be out for 20 hours. And when I finally fell asleep, I was up in two hours. And next day was maybe two and a half hours. And, you know, gradually built up to where after like six months, I was back to like sleeping at least six hours, you know. But it took a long time. What were some of the things that you do to try to sleep? I was I was praying. I did a lot of praying, but they were kind of hollow prayers. You know, they I was I was trying everything, you know, even counting sheep, you know, everything trick I could think of to go to sleep. But I think the harder I was trying to sleep, the more it was I couldn't, you know. And so I would just try to relax and concentrate on my breathing. And nothing worked. It switches something off. And it's it's terrible. I like I said, Keith, I would never wish it on my worst enemy because because I think that's the worst torture you can have. You know, not being able to sleep, you know, especially after a couple of weeks. And then when when that when I had 12 days. I thought it's going to be any day now. And then that guy that was on it for one year said, Ted, I'm not going to lie to you. It took 18 days for me. And I was thinking, man, he was only on it for a year. I was on it for seven years. Wow. You know. So.
Keith Vance: And. Did you ever when you're when you go that long without sleeping? Did you ever think about like suicide? All the time.
Ted Armstrong: I fantasized about it. Yeah.
Keith Vance: Do you think if you weren't in a treatment center, people weren't keeping an eye on you like you needed that support group, right? Yeah.
Ted Armstrong: Yeah. Yeah. If I wasn't locked up and they had like 20 foot fence around the whole compound. And you ever try to escape. Oh, yeah. There was a train of fast moving train that was the go behind there. I mean, the fence butt butted right up to it. And there was a ditch and then there was a train tracks and they would just fly past. And I fantasized climbing that fence and jumping in front of that train. And and I almost did it. But then I. I had a thought in my head, you know, with my luck, I'm going to cut an arm off or a leg off and I'm going to still be alive. And then I got to explain this to everybody. And, you know, I, you know, could I screw everything up? So I, you know, I figured I'd probably screw that up, too. Well, you're not
Keith Vance: screwing this up. And I just thank you for doing this. You're not screwing this up. This is people need to hear this. Yeah. And I'm just letting you tell it the way you want to tell it, man. You're doing you're doing good. And I, I can't imagine.
Crosstalk: My heart. Hmm. You know how we said.
Keith Vance: When you met Alma, people thought they had a they thought that you had a mail order bride. They had this whole thing built. We do that same thing with people that are fighting addiction. Mm hmm. We size people up. We make our judgments. Rarely are judgments graceful. They're mostly hard, hard judgments. And we're going to hear more of the story of you battling. Okay. It's been 30 year battle. Mm hmm. But hearing you say, man, I went 20 some odd days with no sleep. My heart goes out to the addict because I can't imagine what that feels like. Right. My heart goes out to you because of you didn't ask for that tree to fall on you. You were already battling alcoholism. Yeah. And then it was almost like something happened just to put a nail in your coffin to get you on this cycle that was really trying to end you.
Ted Armstrong: Yeah. And that was
Keith Vance: really true. It was ultimately really trying to end you. So we only have a perception of what we know. And you know what? You don't know what you don't know. Well, you're going to hear. We're hearing the other side of what you don't know. And I want you to tell all of
Crosstalk: it because I want to know.
Crosstalk: So let's take a little break. Michael, how deep are we?
Keith Vance: Well, now we're deep. Let's take a little break. I got to hit the bathroom. We'll regroup and we'll hit it again. You good? Sounds good. Yeah. All right, brother. This part of the podcast is brought to you by Vance Ranch. Vance Ranch is our family 100 acre ranch in Henry County. We have a 6,000 square foot barn where we host wedding venues, corporate events, anniversary parties, and whatever else you want to use it for. Find the link in the bio. Now let's get back to the show. Brother, we're back. Break. The 20-some odd days of no sleep was one of the last treatments that you went through that stuck. Right. And it was a holistic type treatment center is what you said,
Ted Armstrong: right? Correct, yeah. It was called, I don't know if I should say it, but it was called Choices, and it was in Indiana.
Keith Vance: Okay, well, we'll put them in the link. It sounds like it was a good place. We'll put them in the link. Choices in Indiana. Find the link, Michael. Put it in the... Stick it in there. So, that was one of the... That was the last treatment center you went to, a holistic 22 days with no sleep, and then it seemed to stick. But there were, in your 30 years of trying to be sober, there were cycles of trying to get sober and then even being sober for short stints of time. So, I want to talk about those cycles. What did those cycles look like? I also want to talk about the cycles of getting off the opioids and not being able to sleep, and now you're trying to sleep. You were trying to sleep with alcohol, and now you're just... Addiction is feeding addiction. Right. That's... Okay, so you don't become an addict overnight. It's a process, and you don't get out of it overnight. It's a process. And sometimes that process of becoming sober is a process of failure. God's Word says, A righteous man falls seven times, but that man gets up. Yeah. Okay, that man gets up. And you got up. You kept getting up. You kept getting up, and right now you're standing for seven and a half years. So, let's speak to that person who's in the middle of it. He said, I've tried it, and I keep failing. I might as well just give up. This is who I am. Yeah. Get up, boy. Get up. Yeah. So, speak to that person.
Ted Armstrong: That... What you were saying, you know, that was before Indiana, but what you were saying, I would... People didn't realize. I didn't let people know that Suboxone was this bad. I knew it, because I tried getting off of it myself, and then I knew how powerful it was, and that's when my relapse to drinking would... You know, because I would go one or two months without drinking, but then I would say, okay, I'm going to get off the Suboxone, and I would make it maybe five days. But five days with no sleep, you know, I would think, you know, I'm a basket case at work. I need to get at least two or three hours. So, I would, you know, just guzzle vodka, and that wasn't working, but that would send me on a bender. I'm the type of drinker that once I start and I get to this certain point where I'm really drunk, I want to stay there. And it would, you know, two weeks go by, and I wouldn't eat for maybe, you know, eight days. All I would do is drink and try to sleep. And, you know, so it was like... So, then I would just say, this isn't working, go back on Suboxone, you know. But Indiana, when I got there, what you said about the feeling of wanting to quit, that I, when I went to Indiana, my goal was to get out, get off Suboxone, you know. But I didn't think I could be repaired. And I even told the therapist that, you know, they give you your own private therapist that you're supposed to see once every two days. And I told her, I said, you're wasting your time with me. Spend time with somebody that really wants to get better and can get better. I said, I can't. I've been to the treatment center six times. This is a waste of your time. And I was convinced that that was true. I didn't think there was any way I could be sober. Because, you know, look how long I couldn't be sober. And so, all I fantasized about when I was in Indiana is I knew I was getting a big check from my 401k from the foundry, which I got fired from. You know, I got fired from the foundry. I lost my house, you know, lost my marriage, lost my daughter. What's the foundry? That's where I used to work, East Jordan Iron Works. And it was a good job. But they put me through treatment six different times, you know, over the last three years before I quit. So, they were trying, you know. But, you know, I was failing miserably. But it was being on that Suboxone. You know, I was on that the whole time. And so, I was never really sober. I always had that in my system. You know, I just quit the alcohol, but I still had opioids. Okay. So, I want to make sure.
Keith Vance: There's something really good here. You were never sober. Mm-mm. But outside looking in, you had the appearance of being sober because you weren't drinking. Right. You can't smell it. But the Suboxone is still in your system, and that's what people need to understand. All that time that you were fighting sobriety, you never were sober. No, never. It was the illusion of being sober.
Ted Armstrong: And that's why when, and I'm not putting people down that are on Suboxone or Methadone, because they're both pretty much the same thing. They're both a synthetic opioid. They're both synthetic heroin. That's all they are. Really? And they're actually stronger than what they're, what, you know, Methadone is stronger than heroin, and it's harder, 10 times harder to get off them, and with withdrawals. And, you know, I think doctors only prescribe it because they make money instead of the drug dealers. They know how bad off you are, and they say, let's give them something, make it legal, give them a prescription. They won't get judged for it, and we make the money. I don't trust big pharma one bit. I wouldn't either. Hey,
Keith Vance: no. Me, sitting in that chair, I would not either. No. I don't fault you
Ted Armstrong: for it. And now I see new things on TV. There's something new called Subutex, which is Suboxone, but it's only, you only take it as an injectable, I think, but you only take it once a month, and it stays in your system. And, I mean, they don't think people are going to abuse that, you know. If, when a doctor would tell me to take one pill every four hours, I would take 10 pills every hour, you know. They know you're an addict, so they're prescribing you something super addictive, but they know you're an addict. It makes no sense, but my fantasy the whole time I was in Indiana, especially the last week, was because I knew I was a burden to everybody. Everybody that loved me, you know, I was pretty much a black eye. And so, I was convinced if I just disappear, it would make everybody's life better.
Ted Armstrong: My, uh...
Crosstalk: I got seven kids.
Keith Vance: Five or six grandkids, I don't even know now. I got another one on the way. Our family's getting bigger.
Keith Vance: These podcasts are going to outlive me, you know. They'll be on record to outlive me. But, uh... Let me just go on record saying to my family, even if they're not here yet,
Crosstalk: even if they're not here yet, if they're ever going through something, I want to bear
Keith Vance: that burden with them. Mm-hmm. I wish I would have known you when you're going through this, because my heart goes out to you. Mm-hmm. Like, if you were my son, I would want to, hey, boy, I would want to shoulder that burden with you, carry you. Just tell it to me. Just tell it to me. Just tell it to me. The problem is, and this is where that shame comes into place, even when we tell somebody, most of the time, we're only telling them this much. Exactly. Man, you hit the nail on the head there. We're not telling the whole story. And I just want to say, tell me all of it. Mm-hmm. Tell me all of it. Yeah. And I know we're not to your story of redemption and recovery yet, Mm-hmm. But I'm going to jump the gun a little bit, because I'm feeling it. And Christ, he bore all of it. Yeah. On the cross. He drank that cup that we deserved, and he finished it to the very last drop. He knows what we're going through. He knows what we're feeling. And it's his, like, the redemption story that you're going to get to. I'm jumping ahead, but I'm feeling it, man. I'm feeling it. But on this human plane, on this human plane, if you're going through something, and you got someone in your life, you got a mom, a dad, a brother, an uncle, or somebody that's invested in you, that loves you, and they're showing that love to you, don't tell them the 10%. Exactly. Tell them the freaking 100%. Yep. Because that's when redemption happens, when you just rip the lid off the whole thing and expose that demon. Yep. Expose them. Yep. Nobody's going to love you any less. No. You haven't done anything that no one else has done. There's nothing different about what you've done than anybody else has done. We're all in the same boat. Mm-hmm. But in our own mind, it keeps us down. It's the shame. It's the shame that keeps you there.
Ted Armstrong: Yeah. And that's why I call it a demon, because he uses, I told you before, you know, addiction is Satan's number one tool. Mm-hmm. You know, it brings people away from God. It enslaves you. And it ends up owning you. You know, I always thought I was strong, but this had me. Yeah. And I wish, because my dad would have done anything to bear this burden, and my mom, and my kids, but I was too ashamed to tell them how bad it was.
Keith Vance: And that's what struck a chord with me. You're getting ready to say, I'm going to burden everybody. I know where you're going with this. It'd just be better off if I just went off to myself. Right. And I'm telling you, if anyone of my loved ones feels that way, you come get me. Right. We'll go through this together. We'll go through the freaking mud together. Yeah, keeping
Ted Armstrong: your mouth shut just gets you killed. Yeah. Yeah, I wish I would have done that. I really do, but you're so ashamed, because you know how much people want to believe you're sober, sober, and so you're trying to, and like I told you, as long as I was on that Suboxone, I was never sober. Somebody was trying to get me, he was talking about smoking pot. Somebody was trying to get me a smoked pot, or, you know, or say, Ted, man, it's been over seven years, you know, just to see if you can have one beer or smoke a joint with me. And I said, you don't understand. I'm totally sober. Anything mind-altering, I can't have. One beer, I might be fine for a day. Within a week, I'll be exactly like I was before I went into treatment. Wow. You know, and I know that, because I've done it hundreds of times, you know. I
Keith Vance: didn't mean to cut you off. When you're talking about, hey, man, just be better off if I was not around, I felt that, because I got loved ones, and I don't ever want that thought to be in any one of my loved ones' heads. So continue with your story. Well, it's,
Ted Armstrong: I mean, you know, like, even though my brain was completely numb on alcohol, and I was only feeling 10% of what I should be feeling, I could see the damage I was doing. My family was hurting, and my kids were hurting, and
Crosstalk: it was because of me.
Crosstalk: Hmm.
Crosstalk: So,
Ted Armstrong: yeah, so when I got out of treatment, that was my plan. I was getting a big check from the foundry. Well, you know, not huge, but it was, you know, around 30, 40 grand, and I was going to, my parents were nice enough to let me stay with them, you know, for a while, which caused a whole rift in my whole family. You know, they're like, put them in a halfway house, and do this and that, and so that caused a lot of problems. How old are you right now when this is going
Keith Vance: on? I was 54. Okay, so you, a 50 freaking four-year-old man. Yeah, living back
Ted Armstrong: at home. And, yeah, I was such a mess. Yeah, I had no self-respect whatsoever. I mean, you know, I could, I told you I couldn't look people in the eye. I wouldn't even look in the mirror, you know, in my eyes, because I, you know, was ashamed of myself. And, but when I got out of treatment and I took a bus, Indian Trails bus, all the way back from Indiana to my home, and I could tell, you know, my parents were, you know, I could tell they were worried if they made the right decision, but it was my dad's choice that said, he said, no, you're coming home, and, you know, we had heart-to-heart, but I already had planned, you know, the whole time I was in Indiana, as soon as that check came, I was going to wait for them to go. My stuff was already packed. You know, I just, you know, unpacked a couple of things, so I had my suitcases from treatment already packed. And as soon as they left, they were going on some excursion for, they were going to be gone like 10, 12 hours. So I was going to pack my bags. I knew a place in Gould City in the UP, that had a motel, a cheap motel right next to a bar. I was the best man at a wedding out there, and that's where I stayed. And it's in the middle of nowhere. Nobody would find me. I was going to leave my cell phone at home at my folks' place. So that was my plan. I had it all, it was all planned out, calculated. I wasn't going to commit suicide. I was just going to disappear. And I don't know if you saw that movie.
Ted Armstrong: But, you know, something about Las Vegas, but that's his plan. He's just... He's going to get a motel and drink himself to death, you know. And because the way I was going, it probably wouldn't have lasted a month or two. You know, I could easily have done it on 30 grand. And so that was my plan. I was just going to go to this motel. Hold on a minute.
Keith Vance: I'm trying to understand something. Okay, slow down. Because you know your story, but I don't. These dots aren't connecting real clearly. So you got out of treatment, this holistic treatment. Mm-hmm.
Keith Vance: You're seeing how all the pain you've caused in everybody. And you're like, hey, they're better off without me. Right. It destroyed my family, Keith. Are you not trusting that you're going to be sober very long? Is that what you're battling? Is that right? Yeah. Okay, so you're not trusting yourself. Right. I thought it was impossible. Okay, so you're sober. Stay sober. You're sober, but the training wheels are off now. You're not in the treatment center. Right. That's scary. You're thinking, okay, how long is this going to last? Because it never lasted long before. You got this check from work. Mm-hmm. Your parents go away, and you're going to go. So you're going to spend the $30,000 on
Ted Armstrong: alcohol? On booze, yeah. The motel was only $38 a night. So you're going to blow it? I was going to pay a month in advance. Stay at a room. Buy, you know, $1,000 worth of alcohol. You know, drink it until it was gone. Then I could just walk to the party store. And with me, with drinking, I don't eat. I don't do anything but drink. So I knew the end game. But, you know, I figured if you get rid of the problem, there won't be a problem. Oh, wow.
Crosstalk: Okay. Okay. That's...
Crosstalk: All right. Man, I'm looking
Keith Vance: like a baby.
Crosstalk: I'm not. No,
Keith Vance: you're not. You're human. And thank you. Thank you. Because, listen, as a kid, there's been times my dad told me the right thing. Mm-hmm. It has a whole other layer when he said, hey, Keith, here's what I went through. And he was transparent with me. Mm-hmm. So this transparency you're showing has a whole other layer of sobriety than just saying the right thing. Right. You follow me? Gotcha. This is going to connect with a lot of people. I hope it does. It is. So thank you. All right. So mom and daddy, they go off on their excursion. Right.
Ted Armstrong: I had my stuff, you know, like I said, I had most everything packed. And then, you know, something probably, you know, my demon in the back of my head say, man, this would go smoother if you had a drink in you so you, you know, could get things done. Because that's another thing with Suboxone. It stays in your system for up to a year in your bone marrow. So they even told me I'd have withdrawals for probably eight months. So I was only still sleeping like maybe two, three hours a night, if that. And so I wasn't 100% clear-headed. I was sober for 36 days, but that was from alcohol and Suboxone. But that stuff's still in your bone marrow. Understood. And so anyway, as soon as they left, probably within 10 minutes, I ran to this corner store that's, you know, a couple miles down the road. And I bought two pints of vodka. And there's a beach called Rex Beach. I pulled in there because it's off the road and no cops. And I, you know, was contemplating what I was going to do. And I finished that bottle, the first bottle. And then, you know, I hadn't drank for 36 days. So it was like it hit me a lot harder than it usually does. And so I get, and I'm no advocate of drinking and driving. It's totally wrong. But I was in my, got in my truck, I mean, my Jeep and heading back to my folks place to throw my stuff in the Jeep. And I had that other pint tucked in my pants. And right before the driveway, I noticed there was a mother deer and her baby. And it looked like it was going to, they were going to cross in front of me. So I was kind of slowing down watching them. Like, what are you guys going to do? Are you going to jump out in front of me? And then I looked and I was already to the point of almost passing the driveway. And instead of just going down the road and turning around, I just cut the wheel to make it in the driveway. And my Jeep tipped over. And, I mean, it was like slow motion. It was, you know, I was going five miles an hour. And it was like up on its side, like almost like debating whether it was going to go one way or the other. the other. And I was like, come on. And boom, it went down right at the bottom of the driveway. So everybody on the road going by saw it, you know, and here I am, I had, and I never wear my seat belt. For some reason, I put my seat belt on. If I don't know if I did that Rex Beach or when, but I knew I was like trapped. I was like, Oh my God, because I knew this is foiling everything. This is, you know, all my plans. And now look at what happened, you know? And, um, so I, I'm like a caged animal. Like, Oh my God, I got to get out. I thought for sure the adrenaline, I could pick my Jeep up, you know, and flip it back on its, on its tires. And then I go to get out.
Keith Vance: Yeah. Maybe if you did leg day a few more days, you might've been able to, you might've been able to. So maybe that's why, maybe that's, maybe God was good to you. That's why you never did leg day. Maybe
Ted Armstrong: that's why. Okay. Could be it. But I, uh, I've shared the story with you and I've only told maybe two other people, but I, you know, I'm, I'm laying, you know, so, so on my, on my driver's side, I'm right on the ground, you know, I'm looking up and my windshield and, and my seat belt's on. And I was like, okay, I'm going to get out and I'm going to jump through the back, the, uh, passenger door. And somehow I'm going to get this truck flip back over. Cause I was still planning on going. And so I go to take my seatbelt off and it was, would not unlatch it. And then it started tightening up on me and, and this sounds corny, but it really happened. And I, I didn't have my knife on me because the knife I always carry, my ex-wife took during one of my benders, you know, she took my wallet and my knife. Um, and, uh, so I didn't have my knife on me. So I remember I had another knife in my console, my Jeep console, and I'm like this and it's upside down. And so I opened that up and my console is kind of deep and I could see that thing. But every time I get close to grabbing it, my seatbelt would start ratcheting more. I mean, and I was like, at first I was like, what is going on? And then it clicked again. And I was just sitting still. And I looked up, you know, I looked up in the sky and I said, God, stop it. You know, and
Keith Vance: you're trying to get to your knife. Cause you want to cut my seatbelt off
Ted Armstrong: so I can escape. You can't get your seatbelt off. And, and I looked up and I told God, I said, stop. And as soon as I said that it clicked three more times. I mean, just, it was like, no, I'm not letting you do this.
Ted Armstrong: Yeah. He, I mean, those were my plans. Those weren't his plans. And, uh, and I was like, why,
Crosstalk: you know?
Crosstalk: But I knew
Ted Armstrong: I was, I knew I was caught. I knew the gig was up. Um, God made up his mind and, uh, he wasn't going to let me bail. And it's funny cause there was a volunteer fireman that came. I saw him pull over and I was like, my goose is cooked. You know, I saw this light and he turned his bubble, little bubble light on. And so while he's walking up to me, I grabbed that other bottle out of my waistband and I just guzzled the whole thing right in front of him. I heard him on a cell phone to the police, you know, he's drinking right now. And, uh, I figured, you know, just do it like I always do it and numb it. So I don't got to deal with it. Wow. And, um, then, and this other volunteer fireman, the one that had to come through my windshield because he tried everything, get my seatbelt off and wouldn't come off. So he had to bust through my windshield, crawl in. And he had one of those things that cuts your seatbelt. And he, he goes, man, that thing had you. And I was thinking, yeah, thanks God. You know, I was mad at God then because I carefully planned this for the last two weeks and he totally showed me who was boss. Wow. Well, thank God for that. Yeah. And, uh, I mean, I knew that was a miracle, but like I told you, I'm a dumb alcoholic and, and, uh, you know, I went to jail and the next day they let me out at like five 36 in the morning. And they, you know, I saw the magistrate and they said, no drinking, you know, you got a DUI. Uh, we're going to want you to come back in for, uh, drug and alcohol screening at six o'clock tonight.
Keith Vance: Let me ask you a question real quick. Your mom and dad were just gone for 10 or 12 hours. Yep. Yep. Yep. Your plan didn't come to fruition. You've only been home for not even a day. No, I think I was there two days. Okay. So when they got home and they're dealing with this, what was their reaction? I was gone
Ted Armstrong: because the police already took me away, so I don't even know. You don't even know? Did you ever talk about it afterwards? No. I know my brother-in-law, Ted, helped get my Jeep turned over, and I thank him for that. I wish I could have thanked him personally, but they already didn't want nothing to do with me, and I don't blame them one bit. Your mom and dad, you don't know what their thoughts were during that? No, no. I mean, it must have just killed them because everybody's saying, we told you so. Everybody that didn't want me to go there to stay for a while. Got it. They're all pretty much, we told you so. We told you this was going to happen. And so they were right.
Keith Vance: So you go to jail. Judge says DUI.
Ted Armstrong: Okay. Yeah, and I spent the night there, and the next morning at like 6.30 in the morning, they gave me a breathalyzer, and I was still blowing hot. But they said, well, you're good enough. And so they just let me out, and it was in Bel Air. And so, you know, I was thinking about calling my folks to have them come get me, or my folks were waiting for a call to come get me. But instead of doing that, you know, my brain, I walked right to a party store. It was 6 o'clock in the morning. I bought two more bottles of vodka, started walking home. And after the judge says, yeah, you got to blow. Right. Every day. Exactly. As soon as you get out, you find a store. Yeah, because I did not want to deal with any of this, so I figured I'll just numb it. I'll completely go back into oblivion land and don't have to deal with any of this. Even if it was for a day, you know, I don't have to deal with it now. Alcoholics and antics are so good at putting stuff off until the next day. Instead of tackling the problem, they say, let's avoid this problem and not think about it. Numb the brain. Don't think about it. Can
Keith Vance: I ask you a question? You talked about Suboxone. Yeah. The effects it had on you. Now we're talking about alcohol.
Crosstalk: You're numbing the pain. Yeah.
Crosstalk: Which one was worse? What were the dynamics
Keith Vance: between the two?
Ted Armstrong: I think they're pretty much tied. Really? You know? Yeah. Yeah. They were both tools for me to escape reality. And reality is not that bad. That's a good point. What the heck was I? That's a good point, you know? And yeah, that was. Hmm. You know, now being sober, I can look back on it and, you know, kind of make sense out of some of the chaos. But that's what, when you're in full, you know, using whole life is chaos, you know, and chaos becomes normal, you know? And, you know, it's just, you know, the shame is in the lies and, you know, just knowing how bad I messed up, you know, and then I can't even do the one thing I planned for three weeks. Got it. I can't even get that done, you know? And I knew it was God. I knew God did that. You know, I yelled at him. I was pissed. And, you know, then, so after walking down the road, you know, I downed my first pint, had the other one tucked in my pants. Well, that hit me pretty hard because I hadn't eaten in a couple days. And so, you know, I was taking breaks, sitting down. Well, I don't even really remember, but my parents, they, it got to be like seven o'clock and they called my sponsor and Rick, who he's helped me tremendously, you know, and they called him and, and Rick said, did he get out of jail? And my mom said, yeah, he called the jail and they let him out at six o'clock. And Rick told my mom, he said, he's already drunk. Wow. And my mom's like, no, he isn't. How would you know that? And sure is sure enough, Rick was right. And, but any of the way they picked me up, took me home, they could tell something was off, but they didn't know what. Well, I just said, I'm going to lay down. And as soon as I went in the bedroom, I, I just drank that other pint in one drink and it hit me so hard. I fell face first on the floor and they heard me hit the ground. I hit my head on the. and I was out. I was unconscious. So, of course, my mom freaking out. She called 911, and the police came and got me again, took me right back. I'd been out of jail for, what, two hours, and I was right back there. And for some reason, I thought I could still make, somehow I could still make this plan work, but I knew God made up his mind, wasn't going to let me. But that was my last drink. Really? But it was, you know, my last drink should have been 30 years ago. Oh, hey,
Keith Vance: listen. This is good. Yep. So that was your last drink. Yep. Let's make the transition. Yep. Let's make the transition. When did redemption happen? Let's hear it. Up until now, it's been a freaking train wreck. Oh, it's been a tragedy.
Ted Armstrong: Yep. And all my family, the part of my family that did not want me to come back home, they were like, and I told you so mode, you know, and I felt terrible because my parents were just, you wouldn't give up on your kid, you know? And they, even though they should have gave up on me, they never did. And they, I was so ashamed. And finally, my dad talked with me. And, and I did, like you said, I just opened everything up. Wow. For the first time? Yep. For the first time?
Keith Vance: At 50-something years
Ted Armstrong: old? Yep. I'm a slow learner. Yeah. 54 years old. So what was that conversation like? Let's live there for a while. I just told him everything and how bad it was. And, and he was, my dad was the, gave the best advice.
Ted Armstrong: And anyway, he, he said, let's go to church tomorrow. And I hadn't been to church in years. And a friend of mine, his dad is a minister at a church called Celebrate Church. It's a country church, you know, a family, you know, most of, most, all of them are family related brothers, sisters, cousins. And, and so we went, you know, and I took, I told the pastor before because he knew my problem because I was friends with his son, Isaiah. And he invited me to come down and talk before, you know, Sunday. And so it was on a Saturday and he wanted me to come in the church. And I said, if I, and I honestly thought, I told him, I said, if I come in there, the place will probably burn to the ground, you know. Isn't it funny
Keith Vance: how, man, this is good. Isn't it funny how people make perceptions of us? I'm married, I'm married, a Filipino girl must've been a male older bride. Exactly. People like these perceptions of us. And we do the same thing on God based on our precepts. I know. He's kind of, but listen, he, he is who he says he is, not who we say he is. Read his word. Man, he never turns his back on his, like he is so good to us. And so we don't deserve it. We don't deserve it, but we get it. I mean, he said, listen, he sent his only begotten son to die for everything that we've done. How much more does he have to demonstrate his love for us? Right. That's what he did. But we still somehow think, well, no, he doesn't love me or no, that's for everybody else, but not me. Our preconceived ideas, our judgments that we make, we make on him. Listen, let him speak for himself. Right. Exactly. Let him speak for himself, even if it doesn't feel right, or even if it doesn't feel like I deserve it. Let him speak for himself.
Ted Armstrong: Good stuff, Keith.
Keith Vance: Man, this is your story, brother. I'm just, I'm just walking it with you. This is your story.
Ted Armstrong: Yeah. I like, love your perspective though, because I never thought of it that way. But, um, but yeah, he, so you don't want to go to church because you guys are going to burn it down. Right. I told Dave, the pastor, I said, I said, I'm not even kidding. If I walk in there, that place is probably going to catch fire and burn to the ground. And he goes, no, it won't. It's not who God is. Nope.
Keith Vance: Hmm. So I'm glad, I'm glad you went.
Ted Armstrong: Yeah. So the next day, my day, me and my dad, uh, that was before he, you know, he had a heart attack and broke his hip and everything. Um, the next day me and him just went to church just by ourselves. And he was already not getting around that great, you know, and he's on a walker and, and, uh, after, after the church service, when the preacher, you know, said, does there, is there anybody here that needs to come up and have me pray for them? And I could never, would never, ever do something like that. Cause I don't like being center of attention and, and, uh, and something just said, do it, you know? told me to do it. And, um, and I just stood up and my dad's like looking at me. And I, I walked up there and I said, I goes, you guys know this story, my story. I said, I need help. And, um, he, you know, he puts like oil on my head, like a cross. And then, uh, him, he said, let's bow our heads and him and his wife and me, can't, they just, you know, put their shoulders around me, their arms around me. And he started praying. And when he was praying,
Ted Armstrong: when he was praying, it was like electricity was just like, it started at my feet and it just went right up my body. And it was amazing. And my dad saw it.
Crosstalk: And, uh,
Crosstalk: my dad knew right then that I changed.
Crosstalk: And, uh, I told you, um,
Ted Armstrong: right after that, my compulsion for alcohol, my, my constant obsessing of my next drink that was gone, it was gone. You know, I, that was all I thought about was getting drunk or getting high and it was gone. I was at peace, but I mean, things were still rough. I was still, you know, relapsed. I mean, I was still, you know, things from Suboxone. I was still, but I just started going to AA every day, you know, when I was court ordered to go to at least one meeting a day, I was court ordered to do a breathalyzer every morning, every night. I even had to buy this breathalyzer thing. Cause, uh, little kit thing to save me from driving all the time. Cause I didn't have a license. So my dad was, you know, being in a walker, he was driving me to my drug, you know, screens and blowing and which must've, you know, here he's a cop and he's taken his criminal son, you know, um, Hey, let your dad speak for himself.
Keith Vance: Don't project that on him. Let him speak for
Ted Armstrong: himself. But then I remember, matter of fact, I started doing this at the jail the second time I was in jail. Cause, cause that time they kept me for six days and, uh, and I, I got down on my knees, you know, I mean this, you know, there's, I was in the drunk tank with like 12 other guys had a little bunk and, and I just got on my knees, put my elbows up on the bed and, uh, said my prayers. And I, I was there for probably half an hour and the flip, the whole jail got silent, you know? And it was like, they, you know, yeah. And, and before I would have been ashamed, you know, and the one guy, one guy goes, aren't, aren't you embarrassed about doing that? And I said, I said, if anything, God should be embarrassed that I'm hit, you know, his, I'm not embarrassed of God, you know, but to this day I get on my knees every night and you don't have to, a lot of people just pray in bed. But with me, it's just like a way to honor him a little more, you know? Yeah. And it's funny. My wife, sometimes I'll get in bed, you know, after a really long day or something like that, I'll get in bed and start getting all comfortable. And she goes, you, you forgot your prayers. And I was like, Oh, you're right. And then I was like, man, maybe I can just say I'm laying down and I go, no, I got to get down there.
Keith Vance: It's funny because, um, when God puts something in your mind like that, like that's what you got to do. Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, something like that happened to me once I was, it was in the morning and I was getting ready to get up to go to work. And, uh, I sat up, I I'm on the edge. So it was like a slow motion, Ted. I sat up in bed, I'm sitting on the edge of bed to get ready to get up. And the spirit of God says, you're going to stand up on your own today. Like for me to stand on my own two feet would have been, I'm going to get the Keith Vance is going to get this day. Yeah. And I held my freaking feet off the bed, Ted, like this, like, Nope. And I prayed, God, give me everything that I need. Like help me to walk, help me to stand in your strength. Like I'm, it would have been a, it would have been wrong for me to put my feet on the ground to turn around and get on my knees. And I pray like this with my feet off the ground. Isn't that crazy how God does stuff like that, does stuff like that for us. And just this, this was a picture of dependency, man. I can't do anything without your help. Exactly. And I don't want to do anything without your help. I don't want to go through this day without you by my side. So for you getting on your knees is a show of dependency. Right. Yeah. And from that day
Ted Armstrong: on, you know, my first prayers were let a year hurry up and fly by so I can have a year sober. Oh. You know, but then I started thinking, man, I'm wasting tomorrow if I'm just waiting for a year to pass. And so it just after showing him the respect by getting on my knees every night and it was like he finally said, OK, now I can start showing you what I can do. OK. You know, and so that's a good transition. Yeah. You said things just I couldn't believe. I mean, I lost everything, Keith, everything. I didn't have nothing, you know, and now I had a Jeep that was needed to get repaired because when she was busted out. And and and I didn't have a job. I didn't have. I mean, I was I started, you know, and it wasn't like I was a spring chick and I was 54 years old, you know, starting completely from scratch at 54, you know. So let's you just said,
Keith Vance: hey, what did you say again? What did God say to you? Do you remember what you just said? What did God what was it that God said? He says, hey, now that now that now let me show you what I can do. OK.
Ted Armstrong: You know, you showed me that you're honest now. You're facing your problems. Now let me show you what blessings are all about. You know,
Keith Vance: can we talk about some of that stuff now? Yeah. Let's just let's just create a little segment in itself. God said that to you. What were some of the blessings that started coming from that point on?
Ted Armstrong: It was weird because when I told you I couldn't look in the mirror, I could start looking in the mirror. And I could. For for years, I was beat and I'm not feeling sorry for myself, but I was beating myself up and I was feeling sorry for myself. And and I didn't want friends. I didn't want anybody. I couldn't look anybody in the eye because I was too ashamed. And all that started melting away. You know, we're social creatures. We're meant to be around other people. And I wasn't. I completely. Isolated myself. And addiction loves isolation. That's that's its ultimate goal is because then all you want is it. You don't care about people. You don't care about your family. You care about your addiction. And so isolation is the worst thing an addict can do. You know, you want to be around people. And I started
Keith Vance: craving being around people. So God's God gave you. A community. Yeah. Yeah. Well, what were some other things that he
Ted Armstrong: gave you? Well, then he pretty much showed me, you know, alcohol and drugs took up most of my day. And now that was gone, I had to fill up my day. So, you know. Wow. And so I was thinking, you know, and God kind of threw it out there that, you know, I enjoyed the gym. I always loved working out. And so I joined. That's when I joined Challenge Fitness and Charlevoix. And I mean, I was like 165 pounds when I got out of treatment. And I was rough. I looked like I was 80 years old, you know, because I, you know, my head sagging skin all down. You know, I just, I looked like a mess. And I just started working out and I started trying to eat, you know. And God was blessing me every day. And it didn't happen overnight, but I could tell I was feeling stronger. And I still wasn't ready to have, get a job yet because I was still, like I said, withdrawing major off of Suboxone. And I didn't get a job, I think, until almost two or three months after I was back, after I got out of jail. And, but I had that check, you know, instead of using it to kill myself, I was using it to pay bills and help my parents out. And, and, and pay for that treatment center in Indiana. And even though it didn't do, you know, it, it got me off Suboxone, you know, even though I was, all I was doing was planning my escape. It got me off Suboxone. And, and I'm not kidding you, if it wasn't for being locked up, I would not have been able to do it. Wow. I wouldn't have been able to do it ever. And, and I was so relieved to be off of, it's, it's, it's so weird going that long, having a crutch that you completely depend on. And, and, and now I just, all I had to depend on was God. Wow. And, and life was so much better. I didn't go to bed wondering what, what did I do last night? You know, man, did I make a fool of myself? Did I talk to somebody on the phone? Did I, you know, you know, just, you know, finally acting like an adult, you know? It took a long time, but, but man, and before you know it, you know, weeks turn into months, months turned into years. And, uh, after the first year sober, at first I was terrified cause I knew they were taking me off probation. You know, I'd been on probation for a year. And so they were forcing me to do all these breathalyzers and so many meetings and, you know, and I thought I was terrified. I was like, man, that was my safety net, you know? And I thought, you know, am I going to go back? And I didn't trust myself. And then I just started praying harder and, and, you know, I didn't go back. I never, like I said, the compulsion was gone. Good. You know,
Keith Vance: what was the, and I just had this thought, you basically walked around numb for the majority of your life. Yeah. Now that that's out of that, now that that's out of your system, Christ did for you what you couldn't do for yourself. And now you begin to feel, do you remember some of those, like, remember what that was like? Yeah. As, as the alcohol and everything is dissipating out of your system. And now you're, you're really feeling for the first time, like, and the, and the, and the way that you're supposed to feel, can you speak to that at all? And I don't, it was, it, it
Ted Armstrong: was, you, you, you hit it again. It was, it happened at an AA meeting and all of a sudden, you know, I just started bawling. I was telling a story. I started crying and I was like, what the heck is going on here? I don't ever cry. And the person said, your feelings are coming back. Wow.
Crosstalk: Yeah. And they did, they flooded back. Really?
Ted Armstrong: Are you able to speak to that? It's, it's just amazing. Like you said, you're numb for so long and then your feelings start flooding in. And I still, you know, I was still living in shame for that year because, you know, I had the, you know, my family still hating me because I, you know, I pretty much ruined our family. And, uh, and so I was still ashamed that people are still writing things about me on Facebook and, and, and I was so ashamed, you know, I didn't want people to know who I was. And when I joined the gym, nobody knew that side of me, you know? So it was like, I was meeting all new people. You had a fresh start. Yeah. It was almost, and nobody, and I never spoke of it. And then I, I saw a guy there, Adam, he ended up becoming one of my best friends and, uh, he's a kid, you know, he was like 26 years old and he started, me and him started working out together. And then I'm at an AA meeting that, uh, two nights later and there's Adam sitting there at the table. Oh, wow. And I was like, I didn't know you were in, and he was an addict, you know, a recovered addict. And, uh, he was talking. And then after that, me and him just became, you know, here he's my best friend and he's, he's younger than my son, you know? And, uh, so we started working out together. He goes, you know, he knew I didn't have a job and he'd been at his place for like five years. He goes, Ted, we're looking for a guy really bad. If you don't mind hard work. And I said, I love hard work, you know? And so I got a job there and I'm still there. Good. And, uh, it's just amazing how God, like I said, said, show, let me show you what I can do now. You know, you're living honestly and, and it's so great to not have to lie anymore. I don't, I don't lie about anything. If even if it's going to hurt somebody's feelings, I'm going to tell them the truth. I'm going to say, I'm sorry, but you know, um, because lying, you know, it's like anything else with me, you know, if, if it's easy to do one time, I'm going to do a hundred times, you know? And, uh, so the honesty and sobriety and God, it saved me. And now his blessings are abundant. You know, it's, it's amazing. I, I never in a million years would have thought it would have been this good. I'm happy for you. Thanks, bud. I'm happy
Keith Vance: for you. I'm glad. I'm glad you're here and I'm glad that you're able to speak to this. I'm glad you're able to speak to this. I wish. Who knows who's 20 years behind you? Like who, who knows that you as living this right now, that's 20 years behind you that needs to hear this. And this could be what it is to, for God to speak to them or draw them. Who knows? You know? Yeah. I, I,
Ted Armstrong: my advice to them is do it now. Don't put it off. Like I said before, you know what? 30 years are going to pass and you're going to be still living in shame, you know, bite the bullet, go through the withdrawals and enjoy life, man. That's what it's about.
Keith Vance: Is there any questions that I need to be asking you that I haven't asked you yet? Hmm. All right. Cause I got two more. I got two more things. I want to talk about. So we're in my mind, we're coming close to the end. All right. But I don't want to miss anything. I just want what
Ted Armstrong: I said about, you know, meeting
Crosstalk: friends at the gym. You know, they became my family. Yeah.
Crosstalk: They don't realize. Yes.
Crosstalk: Yeah, it was, you know, we even started calling it a gym family, you know.
Ted Armstrong: Yeah, they, it was just neat being part of something.
Ted Armstrong: Something that wasn't destructive. Yeah. Yeah. And people that actually cared about each other for, with no reason except for trying to better yourself, you know. You're at a bar and people just want to get wasted. You're at a gym and people are actually trying to better themselves. And these people, you know, we became just like family. And it got me through some dark days, you know, gave me something to look forward to.
Crosstalk: I can speak
Keith Vance: to this. And maybe, maybe this is a little blip in the, in the podcast here that we just speak to for a little bit, but there's, when we get done here, we're going to go over to my gym. I'll show you around, but that's my therapy over there. Mm-hmm. God created us physical creatures. Adam and Eve. Mm-hmm. In the garden. They were to work. They were to take care of the garden. You know what I mean? They were to do stuff. And something about being in the gym, exercising this body, putting some heavy load on it, doing some reps, getting a sweat going, like feeling that burn, all that stuff that we do with this body is therapeutic, that transcends the physical. Oh, big time. The emotional. Mm-hmm. How many times, hey, have
Crosstalk: you ever,
Crosstalk: have you ever been going through something
Keith Vance: emotionally draining? Mm-hmm. Get underneath a freaking squat bar, squat rack, put some heavy freaking weight on that thing, go down and get everything you got, and cry, scream, have these emotions that's not connected to the weight. Weight, it's what's inside, that weight that you're feeling inside. Right. There's something between the physical, the emotional, and the spiritual. We're made of three parts, and I don't understand it. I'm not a theologian, but we're made of body, soul, and spirit, and they're all connected somehow. Yeah. And somehow by putting this body under strain, somehow by going out and just going for a long run, Yeah. connects to those other two things that can do something bigger on us than just the physical and the weight. Mm-hmm. Does that just... No, it makes total sense. When I just tried to describe this to you, because the gym is your therapy. It is. It has a connection to your sobriety, and you're doing hard things, Ted. You're doing hard things, Ted. Mm-hmm. You're not just going in there, you know, doing a puzzle. You're not doing light work. You're doing some heavy stuff. Yeah. And that heavy stuff has a connection to your sobriety. Right. It
Ted Armstrong: does. And you know, just like I do, you go into a different world someday. And some days when you're in the zone and you're working out, I mean, there's no other place I'd rather be. And it cleans my brain. That's a
Keith Vance: good... You know? Clip that. Clip that. That's a good picture. It
Ted Armstrong: cleans your brain. Yeah, it does. It washes all the bad out. I mean, I get out of the gym and I've, you know, I'm not worried about nothing. I'm washed. My brain's been clean until the next day when it's back and by day. You know?
Keith Vance: Yeah. And that's one thing, you know, some people, they work out first thing in the morning to get their day going. Mm-hmm. I work out in the afternoon. To detox. Mm-hmm. To get rid of the stress. Right. That's what it is for me. Like, I got whatever, it builds up and then I just, it just, okay. My brain's clean again. Yeah. It has that effect on me.
Ted Armstrong: That's what it does to me, too. And there's nothing like it. I, I, I, a lot of people that get sober join a gym. Really? And, uh. Maybe there's something, well, not maybe, there's something there. Yeah. Well, it's, it's your chance to feel human again, you know, and, and, uh, get the blood flowing. And, uh, get the blood flowing. And like I said, my brain, you know, I can be all full of static. I go to the gym, just hammer it, get in the zone. And on my way home, I'm in the best mood ever, you know. And I told Chris, the owner of the gym, I was like, I never once came home from the bar and was proud of what I did. But when I get a good workout coming home from the gym, I'm in a great mood, you know.
Keith Vance: And not 50% of the time, 100% of the time. Yep. So stepping into the gym, how many times do we want to go? 50%, 60%, who knows? But you do it anyway. Right. You go through that process of cleaning your brain. And then once the process is over for the hour, hour and a half, you always feel
Ted Armstrong: good. Yeah. Always feel good. Yeah. I've never, like you said, I've never regretted going to the gym. I've never gone to the gym and thought, man, what a waste of time that was on the way home. I'm always just like, man, you know, this is being alive.
Keith Vance: And again, as human beings, God designed us. He built us. The fact that we feel that way, there's something behind that that's spiritual. I don't know what that is, but I want to find out. Yeah. Well,
Ted Armstrong: even when I was a kid, Samson was my favorite, you know, my favorite Bible story, just because he was so big and strong. Yeah. I remember Uncle Dickie, you know. Yeah. When I was, I was a kid, he was in bodybuilding shows. And, and I remember saying, man, that's what I want to, I want to start doing. I want to be a big, strong guy, you know.
Crosstalk: Well, you are, um,
Crosstalk: you were like a hero to me because, um, at
Keith Vance: 60 something years old, we've been through some stuff, you know what I mean? But to still be getting after it, that makes me want to get after it. Yeah. Like how, how, how long can we do this for? Yeah. Here you are working second shift. Yeah. Working with concrete and heavy stuff, going to the gym at 60 something years old, where most people are supposed to be retiring and take it easy. Right. And you're still freaking strong. Yeah. I'm still getting after it.
Ted Armstrong: As long as you inspire me. Yeah. Thanks, man. And, uh, you inspire me. I can't do all the running and all the stuff you do, the different, you know, I'm more just like a lifter and bodybuilder, but your cardio is out of control. There's no way I could make, when I saw you run for, you know, what'd you go a hundred miles or something like that? It was 110. I was like, Oh my gosh, you know, you inspire the heck out of me. You know, I don't know how we got reconnected, but I'm damn glad we did. Me too. Because, because heck, last time I saw you before this, you were, I think six years old, six or seven years old. You know, running around barefoot in the bait shop, you know? So, yeah. God makes things full circle, man. And this is like part of that circle.
Keith Vance: Yeah. Amen. And when we get a glimpse of it, it's inspiring. Big time. And I want more of that. Yeah. I'm going to ask you two more things. Is there anything else you want to talk about for my last two? No. Okay. Your relationship with your dad. Mm-hmm. You disappointed him. You felt like you disappointed your father. You had a certain perspective of yourself. Like, well, my dad, my dad must be ashamed of me because of this. Right. Um, the events in your life, um, put you in his home at 50 something years old when his health was declining. Mm-hmm. He was there and he saw that transition in you. Um, you had talked to, hey, um, my dad and I got real close. Mm-hmm. Can we just talk about you and your dad's relationship? Sure. Towards the end and, you know, how you were a caregiver for him and, like, just how you got close with him. Yeah. It was an
Ted Armstrong: honor. Um, and the love him and my mom had for each other. Um, total unconditional love. Um, he, he, he always thought he, he got to where he thought he was a burden and, and I was thinking, you know, I know exactly what that feels like. Oh.
Ted Armstrong: But, um, my mom and me were both honored that we could help him. And, uh, um, you know, those, I'm so grateful that God gave us that five years of, that he could see me sober and he could actually say, I'm proud of you. Mm-hmm. And, uh, you know, and, you
Crosstalk: know, say he never gave up on me.
Crosstalk: And, you know, the last year,
Ted Armstrong: there was times where, you know, he was saying, you know, I can't do anything. You know, he wanted it to go away. And mom's like, no, don't quit talking like that, you know. And mom could bring him back to earth, you know. And the last six months, he knew his time was fading. And, you know, he got to where a lot of times I could hear him call for my mom. And it would be late, you know, four in the morning, three in the morning. And mom wouldn't hesitate. She would go out there with her chair and just hold his hand.
Ted Armstrong: And,
Crosstalk: yeah, that's what love is.
Crosstalk: But when for
Ted Armstrong: my grandson's birthday party, it was his second year birthday party. And me and Alma got a motel about 20 miles from their house. And this birthday party was the next day. And I get a phone call. And it's mom. And I can hear dad in the background just wheezing for air. And mom said, Ted, your dad's not doing good. He's been pretty much unconscious for the last four or five hours. She said, Angie's here. And my Angie's daughter, Sarah, was there. And we're talking this is like one in the morning when they called. And I usually don't go to sleep till three. So you're not a good sleeper. I don't get the impression that you've been a good sleeper. But so I was still awake, you know, in the motel. And, you know, mom's like, Ted, it's really bad. And I could hear him in the background just wheezing, trying. And she said he's totally unconscious. She said he's been like this for almost five hours. And she said, you know, and I said, do you want me to come home? And I said, I can get home right now. And she said, no, it's not. That won't do anything. She said, you stay for your grandson's birthday party. And I'm like, are you sure? And then I could hear him in the background. And he was, you know, and then I said goodbye to her. And then something said, you know, I wanted to talk to him one more time. And so I called right back. And I was just about to tell my mom, can you just put the phone to his ear? And when she answered, I couldn't even say that. And she goes, would you like me to put the phone by his ear? And I said, please, mom. And so, you know, he's making all these noises. And you could tell he's like fighting for every breath. And she put the phone to his ear. And I heard her say, OK, it's right against his ear now. And she had on speaker. And I said, hey, Pops, it's me. And I always call him Pops. I said, hey, Pops, it's me. And as soon as I said that, he stopped the breathing. He went completely quiet. And I could hear my, I could hear Sarah go, oh, my God. And I told him, I said, I just want you to know how much I love you. And you're my hero.
Ted Armstrong: And he said, he said, love you. But you could tell he was struggling to say it. He just goes, love you. And five seconds later, back to the wheezing. And he was back out. But God gave me that. So many people say when people die, they wish they could say, you know, I wish I could have said I love you one more time. I got that chance. You got your chance. And it was amazing. It was beautiful.
Keith Vance: So my next question, just you got your chance.
Crosstalk: Your story is not the story of someone who made their daddy proud.
Keith Vance: But at the end, I was. But at the end. Mm-hmm. Okay. We have a lifetime. And at the end, came full circle. You and your dad reconciled. You got to tell your dad you love him and like, look at the emotion. Yeah. Okay. So there's always hope. Now, this is my next question. You have a relationship with your daughter, Lily. Mm-hmm. That earlier you said you haven't spoke to her in eight years. Right. She's got her. She wants nothing to do with me. She got her reasons for. Yeah. Her reasons are her reasons, but coming off of what you just said between you and your dad, there's hope with her, too. Yeah. If you could speak to her, like, who knows, maybe she's watching this. If you could, like, what would you say to her to bring reconciliation? You know,
Ted Armstrong: she deserved a good dad, you know, and she got the run into the deal. Well, I was so wrapped up in addiction, you know, she gave me the ultimatum before, you know, you got to pick me or the alcohol. And I said, it's not that easy. I can't stop. And when I was enthralled in addiction, I couldn't stop. But they thought, well, you got sober before for two, three months at a time. And I was like, you know, they don't know, but I was never sober because I was always on that suboxone. And, but I would just tell her, you know, you know, God has a plan for everything. If he wants it to happen, it'll happen. But it's been almost eight years. And I'm just proud of her. I love her. I'm always here, you know, just because of circumstances in the past. I don't haven't reached out to her or showed up at the house or anything like that, just because things get out of control and accusations get made. And, and, you know, they didn't want me to go. I know they didn't want me to go to her graduation or her open house or, you know, and I respect them. I don't, you know, so I, you know, I'm just trying to respect her boundaries. It's all, it's all in her, you know, the balls in her court. If I would love a relationship with Lily because she saw the bad me, I would like to show her the good me, you know? And, but I, I don't blame her one bit. I put her through, you know, what kind of a father, you know, misses work, doesn't do anything with the family. All she does is sit on the couch and drink, you know? And she even told me once, she goes, you're not a mean alcoholic. You're just a dumb alcoholic. And that's what I was. I was just, I would drink, you know, watch TV and, and not say nothing to nobody, you know? And I mean, that's no, she did not deserve that. You know, she deserved much better and I'm proud of the girl. She's achieved and accomplished so much. And what are some of the things she's accomplished? She being that when she was in powerlifting, I mean, she was one of the best in the world. She got her daddy's blood in her. Oh yeah. Yeah. She won't, she won't want to admit that, but, but yeah, she, and, and she's, she's stubborn, but she's a great kid. And, uh, she's a welder too. She, yeah, she. Um, and, and I, I guess she's got a pretty good job welding at some fabrication place in Point City. So I'm proud of her, man. And, and, uh, and, you know, I, I would love to show her the sober me, you know? And that's what my son, Jake said, you know, you know, if she could just see how you are now. And that's what's so good about the people at the gym. They never saw the drunk me and they couldn't, uh, I've had them say they couldn't even imagine me being like that. Yeah. You know, so I hope one day, but if, but if it doesn't happen, that's fine with me too. I've accepted that, you know, as long as she knows that I love her and, and, uh, then I'm sorry. And, and, uh, as long as she's happy, you know, that's all I can ask
Keith Vance: for. I'm going to add you to my prayers. I'm going to pray that you'd have reconciliation with her. And, uh, when it happens, we're going to have you back on and we're going to talk about reconciliation. Yeah. We're going to talk about some good stuff. You think you're crying now? Wait, wait, wait till that podcast drops. Yeah. I,
Ted Armstrong: you know, I can't believe how emotional I've gotten here, but, but, you know, those were some dark days, man. And, and, uh, like I said, my, my emotions are back now in full swing and just going back to that and remembering what, what it was like. I, I just want people to, you know, that are struggling and are in, in addiction, man, you know, I was, I completely gave up. I, you know, I've been to six treatment centers. I, but man, it's never over, you know, and if you just. Honestly, let God take over. He'll fix it for you. But as long as you try to say, okay, well, you can do that part, but I'm going to do this part. No, you got to let him do the whole thing, you know, or else it won't work.
Keith Vance: Um, do you mind if when this podcast goes out, if people. will reach out to me. Do you mind if I put them in contact with you? No, I'd
Ted Armstrong: love to help. Okay, let's do it. Yeah, and they can call me at two in the morning if they want to because I'm still awake. Well, brother, I love you, man. Yeah, I love you too, man. I'm glad we reconnected, man. I am too. Because what's it been, 30 years since I saw you?
Keith Vance: You say, I mean, you said I was six years old. Yeah. So we're going to get out of here. We're going to go to my gym. We're going to do some old man workouts. All right. We're going to do some old man workouts. As long as they don't involve squats. Let's get a couple of men. Come on. Let's get a couple of men. All right. That's
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